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Topic: 2012 Ford F650/750 with V10 engines

Posted By: ib516 on 08/23/12 01:38pm

"Production of Ford's new 2012 F-650 with a 6.8-liter V-10 gasoline engine – a class-exclusive in the medium-duty truck segment – kicked off Aug. 15 at the automaker's plant in Escobedo, Mexico."

LINK


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Prev:
01 Dodge 2500 360 gas, 4.10
02 Dodge 2500 5.9L Cummins, 3.55
07 Dodge 3500 SRW Mega 5.9L Cummins, 3.73
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10000# GVWR, 5500# FGAWR, 6500# RGAWR, 3040# payload, 15470# tow rating, 22500# GCWR



Posted By: Perrysburg Dodgeboy on 08/23/12 01:45pm

Tell me it's not so.....Ford's building trucks in Mexico . Why would anyone want a V-10 gas in a 650/750 truck . But at the end of the story it say this....."Ford is moving production of the F-650 and F-750 medium-duty trucks from Escobedo to its Ohio Assembly Plant in Avon Lake, after the plant stops current production of the Ford E-Series cargo and passenger vans." So where are the vans going to be built

Don


2015 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab SWB 4X4 Eco-diesel. For your safety "Slower Eco-diesels Keep Right"


Posted By: carringb on 08/23/12 02:10pm

Ford has been building the F650/F750 at the Blue-Diamond plant, which is a joint venture with Navistar. Basically, the F-series and International version are the same truck, just different engines and cabs. QUality on them has been generally very good.

Our fleet runs F650s, and the next ones will be V10 powered. We have already done the math, and the diesels do not offer enough fuel savings to off-set the higher fuel costs and maintenance costs. We did not even factor in the initial costs saving since we could buy a used diesel, but would have to get a new V10. The V10 performs just fine at typical MDT weights (20-30k). Most 650s are shipped with the 240HP diesel anyways, and the V10 can easily out-oull that version. Body builders seem to avoid ordering the higher-HP version of the diesel, and the 340HP version isn't even available for commercial customers.


Bryan

2000 Ford E350 DRW Wagon, V10 - 385,000 miles
2014 CreekSide 31KQBS (QuadSlide bunkhouse)



Posted By: coolbreeze01 on 08/23/12 04:47pm

They should be OK for light use. Did they get their differentials ironed out?


2008 Dodge 3500 With a Really Strong Tractor Motor...........
LB, SRW, 4X4, 6-Speed Auto, 3.73, Prodigy P3, Blue Ox Sway Pro........
2014 Sandsport 26FBSL


Posted By: rjstractor on 08/23/12 06:57pm

With the ever-tightening emission requirements on diesel engines we may see more of this. Commercial operators don't care about the cool turbo whistle or big-truck sound, they care about productivity and cost per mile in a truck. And for some operators the gas V10 may offer a better overall cost per mile with adequate longevity and productivity. Obviously diesels have big advantages in the commercial truck market but the new emission requirements are diminished those advantages, as evidenced by the re-introduction of gas engines in class 6 and 7 trucks.


1998 Gulfstream Ultra B/H Ford E450 V10
2005 Chevy 2500HD 6.0 w/ Maxidump insert
2006 Ford Escape Hybrid
1998 Saturn SL2 toad
2012 VW Jetta S


Posted By: Perrysburg Dodgeboy on 08/23/12 09:44pm

Well I do have to agree that with the new EPA regs the mileage advantage a diesel had is is gone, however cost per mile should still go to a diesel. They go longer before their first scheduled heavy maintenance. They also have longer oil change intervals, no plugs or wires to change. If your using it as a commercial vehicle there is no way a gasoline engine can out perform a diesel with the correct transmssion gearing and a two speed rear end.

Remember commercial vehicles running heavy loads is where the diesel will shine, can you still spec the Cummins or Detroit diesel or is Ford only using their in house engines now. Me if I weee ordering a F650/750 it would have the 6.7 Cummins NOT the 6.7 Ford engine.

Don


Posted By: Bionic Man on 08/23/12 10:01pm

There was an article recently in either Truck Trend or Motor Trend where they tested a Ford 550 dump truck with the V10. Seeed like it performed pretty well.

I love my diesel truck, and don't think I could ever go back to a gasser, but the way that the EPA has screwed things up it makes it harder and harder to justify a diesel based on long term $$ savings.


2012 RAM 3500 Laramie Longhorn DRW CC 4x4 Max Tow, Cummins HO, 60 gallon RDS aux fuel tank, Reese 18k Elite hitch
2003 Dodge Ram 3500 QC SB 4x4 Cummins HO NV5600 with Smarty JR, Jacobs EB (sold)
2002 Gulf Stream Sea Hawk 29FRB with Honda EV6010


Posted By: Sport45 on 08/24/12 01:13am

Another advantage the V-10 has is the ability for local haulers to convert to propane, CNG, ethanol, etc.


Posted By: carringb on 08/24/12 01:23am

Perrysburg Dodgeboy wrote:

Well I do have to agree that with the new EPA regs the mileage advantage a diesel had is is gone, however cost per mile should still go to a diesel. They go longer before their first scheduled heavy maintenance. They also have longer oil change intervals, no plugs or wires to change. If your using it as a commercial vehicle there is no way a gasoline engine can out perform a diesel with the correct transmssion gearing and a two speed rear end.

Remember commercial vehicles running heavy loads is where the diesel will shine, can you still spec the Cummins or Detroit diesel or is Ford only using their in house engines now. Me if I weee ordering a F650/750 it would have the 6.7 Cummins NOT the 6.7 Ford engine.

Don


Oil change intervals are the same whether Cummins 6.7L or Ford 6.8L. This is new since the move to DEF for the Cummins. Non-DEF/DPF Cummins would required shorter intervals when idled extensively or used only in-town due to oil dilution. V10 requires plugs every 90,000 under the severe service table. The V10 does not have plug wires.

The F650 is not available with the Detroit Diesel or the Ford Diesel. Only the Cummins 6.7L, which is rated between 200HP and 340 HP (300 HP max for commercial use other than emergency vehicles). When comparing like transmissions, I don't expect a huge performance advantage. But the Cummins is offered with more transmission options including the Eaton Auto-Shift, and can be ordered with a 2-speed rear. But almost every F650 I have seen for sale comes with either 200 or 240 HP, and the V10 will compete just fine against those applications. The larger transmissions and axles are intended to get the F-series into the Class 7 market (think single axle tractors) but seeing them actually used like that is very rare.


Posted By: Perrysburg Dodgeboy on 08/24/12 02:16am

Thanks Bryan I figured Ford would use their in house 6.7 engine instead of out sourcing them. Is the Cummins 6.7 the same one used in the Ram then? If so I have to wonder why it is so detuned in the larger trucks. With that said, using the right trans with a two speed rear end you really don't need all that HP in that classification of trucks.

Don


Posted By: rjstractor on 08/24/12 09:26am

Perrysburg Dodgeboy wrote:

If so I have to wonder why it is so detuned in the larger trucks.


The detuning is all about duty cycle. As great an engine as the Cummins B is, in the world of commercial diesels it's relatively small and light duty. Since engines in medium and heavy duty trucks work much harder than in a pickup application, it's common to see lower power ratings so that the engines last longer. In fact I'm surprised that the V10 is not detuned as well.

The fact that Ford does not use it's own 6.7 diesel and does use the Cummins also says something loud and clear.


Posted By: ib516 on 08/24/12 11:15am

I'm sure the diesel engine choices in the big Fords are CAT or Cummins diesels in the F650/750...not Detroit or Cummins.


Posted By: larry barnhart on 08/24/12 11:29am

rjstractor wrote:

Perrysburg Dodgeboy wrote:

If so I have to wonder why it is so detuned in the larger trucks.


The detuning is all about duty cycle. As great an engine as the Cummins B is, in the world of commercial diesels it's relatively small and light duty. Since engines in medium and heavy duty trucks work much harder than in a pickup application, it's common to see lower power ratings so that the engines last longer. In fact I'm surprised that the V10 is not detuned as well.

The fact that Ford does not use it's own 6.7 diesel and does use the Cummins also says something loud and clear.


it might be because ford can't make engines fast enough for all models. just thinking
chevman


chevman
2001 35 ft avalon alpenlite RK
2005 3500 2wd duramax CC dually
prodigy
easyrider/reese airhitch
trailair center point suspension
JT Strong Arm Stabilizers
KSH 55 inbed fuel tank
Garmin 2720
scanguage II
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TST tire monitors



Posted By: Kennedycamper on 08/24/12 01:03pm

I've read that Cat isn't in the OTR market anymore. It is weird they don't use thier in house 6.7 diesel though.


Posted By: coolbreeze01 on 08/24/12 03:54pm

Years ago I drove an L series with a V-8 Cat and Allison. Poor combination for a HD truck.


Posted By: Engineer9860 on 08/24/12 04:20pm

One reason for using a gas engine in a medium duty is propane delivery.

When I worked for Amerigas Propane we had several Chevy and Ford "bobtail" trucks with the 7.0L engines that ran on propane from the cargo tank.

This truck had a 427 Chevy.



This truck had the 429 Ford.



After completely pumping off all of the liquid propane in the cargo tank these trucks would run for over 50 miles just on the remaining propane fumes.

So it would not be a stretch to see a 6.8L engine used on an application like this.


In Memoriam: Liberty Belle



Posted By: camperdave on 08/24/12 05:32pm

Engineer9860 wrote:

One reason for using a gas engine in a medium duty is propane delivery.

When I worked for Amerigas Propane we had several Chevy and Ford "bobtail" trucks with the 7.0L engines that ran on propane from the cargo tank.


wow, talk about a serious range!


1998 Ford E350 extended van, V10
1998 Fleetwood Terry 22lw, 24' long, 5000#
Equal-i-zer, Prodigy, Link-10, CPE 2000w generator



Posted By: dbear on 08/24/12 05:38pm

ib516 wrote:

I'm sure the diesel engine choices in the big Fords are CAT or Cummins diesels in the F650/750...not Detroit or Cummins.

Not any more. The only engines offered now are the Cummins 6.7 and Ford 6.8.

Ford F650/F750


Posted By: Hannibal on 08/24/12 06:31pm

That's pretty impressive! If both engines are geared to run at their peak torque rpm at equal road speeds, the V10 will actually deliver more torque to the drive wheels than the Cummins.


'10 F250 XLT CC SB 5.4L 5spdTS 3.73 80k miles
ex '95 Cummins,'98 12v Cummins,'01.5 Cummins,'03 Cummins; '05 Hemi
'07 KZ Jag 28JFSS.


Posted By: carringb on 08/24/12 06:59pm

Perrysburg Dodgeboy wrote:

Thanks Bryan I figured Ford would use their in house 6.7 engine instead of out sourcing them. Is the Cummins 6.7 the same one used in the Ram then? If so I have to wonder why it is so detuned in the larger trucks. With that said, using the right trans with a two speed rear end you really don't need all that HP in that classification of trucks.

Don


The Cummins is almost the same as the Dodge version but Ford retains the Cummins components. Some components in the Dodge version have been downsized (oil and water pumps, oil pan etc). But as far as I know internals are the same. I don't think there is any mechanical differences between the different HP options on the Ford version, besides breathing (i.e. turbo size) and programming. Maybe injector volume too. Lower HP = longer service life for EVERYTHING, including non-related parts like brakes.

Basically you can get the F-series Cummins in any HP, in increments of 20, between 200 and 340. Except 300 is the max offered for commercial users. Probably that whole service life thing.

I have had our 240HP F650 loaded up to 37,000 pounds. Performance is fine. Yeah, it goes slow on hills, but that adds only a few minutes to a 50 mile trip. I've also taken heavy loads with our 300 HP F650, and on most hills I have to back off anyways for other reason, like turns, or rough terrain.

Ford is smart to offer the Cummins. It is one of the primary reasons fleets choose it over it's cousins wearing the International badge (and therefore stuck with Navistar engines). I have not read or heard if Ford plans on offering their 6.7L in their MDTs.


Posted By: carringb on 08/24/12 07:05pm

Oops I see they bumped the commercial offering to 325 HP in the Cummins, and up to 360 for RVs and Emergency Vehicles.


Posted By: blt2ski on 08/24/12 08:29pm

Bryan, IIRC the B5.9 was only up to 300 as noted, the newer 6.7 might go higher due to the bigger CI factor. Similar to what other engine manufactures do, ie more hp, higher torque with the bigger disp motors.

To a degree, put enough gears, spaced reasonably close together, amazing what a smaller HP motor can and will do. One does not NEED 300+ much less 400 ponies to move 15-20K lbs around. 250-300 is ample in most cases.

Marty


92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
00 Chev C2500, V5700, 4L80E, 4.10, base truck, no options!
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer

Check RV.Net Blogs at: blog.rv.net


Posted By: NewsW on 08/24/12 10:59pm

The Ford 6.7 diesel is offered in the F-450 and F-550.

http://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/chassis-cab/specifications/engine/

The 650s have a choice of either 6.8 gasoline or 6.7 Cummins.

There is probably a good marketing reason why the 6.7 Ford Diesel is not offered at this time in the 650/750.

The Cummins agreement may preclude Ford offering a direct competitor.

Another reason is they want more time to test out the 6.7 before committing it to the next higher duty cycle.

It may need a certain amount of strengthening, and detuning to go in the 650/750.

But the 6.8 gasoline being in there says it can be done.


Posted By: NewsW on 08/24/12 11:00pm

blt2ski wrote:

Bryan, IIRC the B5.9 was only up to 300 as noted, the newer 6.7 might go higher due to the bigger CI factor. Similar to what other engine manufactures do, ie more hp, higher torque with the bigger disp motors.

To a degree, put enough gears, spaced reasonably close together, amazing what a smaller HP motor can and will do. One does not NEED 300+ much less 400 ponies to move 15-20K lbs around. 250-300 is ample in most cases.

Marty



Almost all (think actually all) the displacement increase from 5.9 to 6.7 is eaten up by EGR volume.

The effective displacement is basically a 6.0.

The rest is Exhaust Gas.

EDIT: The 2007 EGR level for Cummins, etc. is 30-35% of gas in cylinder.

Effective displacement is 2/3 of 6.7l, though EGR levels can be lower at idle.

That roughly works out to a 4.5-5l displacement.

The 6.0 would roughly be in the same range once EGR is corrected.

Because the Ford 6.7 and GM 6.6 used less ERG and SCR, their effective displacement is bigger... though I don't have the exact number.

* This post was edited 08/25/12 12:12am by NewsW *


Posted By: NewsW on 08/24/12 11:12pm

carringb wrote:



The Cummins is almost the same as the Dodge version but Ford retains the Cummins components. Some components in the Dodge version have been downsized (oil and water pumps, oil pan etc). But as far as I know internals are the same. I don't think there is any mechanical differences between the different HP options on the Ford version, besides breathing (i.e. turbo size) and programming. Maybe injector volume too. Lower HP = longer service life for EVERYTHING, including non-related parts like brakes.



The critical difference is the Cummins bought by Ford is the Cummins industrial / commercial (and not toy grade) version used on the Dodge.

Considerable difference in software, with a much tighter envelope protection for the Cummins/Ford version vs. the Dodge/Cummins version.

Major difference also in terms of certification, one for light duty, the other for medium duty and with it, expectations of maintaining emissions performance over the life of the engine (see EPA "not to exceed" rule.

The commercial Cummins version will dial down power way faster than the Dodge, and prevent it from being overworked.


Posted By: coolbreeze01 on 08/25/12 08:39am

Excellent

"The standard engine for 2012 is the venerable ISB 6.7L. It features the latest Cummins technology, including full-authority electronic controls, a high-pressure common-rail fuel-injection system, 24-valve design, the patented VGT turbocharger, a particulate filter and more. Excellent power-to-weight ratios help it deliver outstanding fuel economy as it delivers every load. The 6.7L comes in your choice of 10 horsepower and torque ratings."

Horsepower..200 to 360
Torque......520 to 800


Posted By: Jarlaxle on 08/25/12 12:16pm

When my current truck (an awful Freightliner M2) is replaced (next fall, I think), I will be SO happy if the replacement is an F-650 with V10 power. I'll take an F-650 XLT with the V10/6R140, 12,000lb front axle, 20,000lb rear axle, leaf springs all around, 295/75R22.5 tires on powdercoated steelies, CD player, buckets & console, heated mirrors, 60-gallon fuel tank, and chrome bumper & grille delete. Make it a 26' Whiting box, 102" wide, 12'6" high, with a 5000lb capacity rail liftgate. I will even willingly give up air brakes and standard shift to get away from the new diesel disasters!


John and Elizabeth (Liz), with 3 nutty cats
My beloved St. Bernard, Marm, lost him 1/2/12
Current rig:
1992 International Genesis school bus conversion


Posted By: carringb on 08/25/12 05:57pm

John - Why don't you like the M2?

We bought one a couple months ago, and the body should be complete this week (hopefully). We specifically did not buy another F650 this time around because of our poor experience with 6.7L's in our Dodge & Sterling trucks, and the V10 isn't out yet.

We kind of jumped into the M2 because we got a good deal, and we are hoping that the Mercedes/Detroit diesel in it won't be as bad as the 6.7L.


Posted By: Jarlaxle on 08/25/12 06:23pm

Gods above, where to start? Basically, it's a low-bid pile that does absolutely nothing well. It is OOS due to a bad liftgate, I have a 2010 International Dura-Star as a rental.

What a revelation! THIS is how a medium duty should be built! It is quiet, comfortable, well-built, and smooth...where the FL's are noisy, bouncy, squeaky penalty boxes. The IH is quieter on the highway with windows DOWN than the FL's with windows UP. (The sound level in the FL actually borders on being painful when the cooling fan kicks on.) The IH's air conditioning is powerful enough to make the cab uncomfortably COLD on a 95+ degree day, without even turning the fan all the way up. The FL's will just, just barely make the cab tolerable, with the fan cranked all the way up and roaring like an airplane...it gives half the A/C for twice the racket, with heat pouring through the uninsulated floor, which actually gets painfully HOT to the touch. (And in the winter, the FL's heat is also lousy, with little airflow from the floor vents and all sorts of drafts from their uninsulated, poorly-built cabs.) The FL's bounce enough that a seat belt becomes a necessity just to stay in the seat...the International rides like a pickup, smooth enough that an air-ride seat just isn't necessary. Expansion joints that send a jolting slam through the FL are noted only as an audible THUMP! and some feedback through the International's steering wheel. The Freightliners emit all sorts of random pops, creaks, groans, and rattles...the IH is tight, quiet, and solid. The FL's cab visibility is bad enough to border on danger...the A-pillars are huge; something like 6" thick, they can hide a semi! The IH's 225HP MAXX-Force DT is smooth, quiet, and flexible, happy either pulling hills at 1600RPM or winding out to its 2700RPM governor.

Also, Freightliner just doesn't do "ergonomics". The switches are flimsy, placement is counter-intuitive (headlight & cruise are blocked by the steering wheel and turn signal stalk, for instance), most are not illuminated, cruise control switches are on the dash. (Internationals have them on the wheel...and they are even backlit.) In a stunning display of idiocy, the flash-to-pass only works with the headlights on. The window cranks turn backwards compared to everything else I have driven. Power window switches, if equipped, are on the dash, a long reach for the driver and completely out of reach for the passenger. (International, logically, puts them on the doors.) The automatic transmission's (column) shifter blocks the driver's cupholder. (Internationals use a dash-mounted shifter that blocks nothing and is next to the driver's right knee.) The tilt column uses an odd foot-operated switch near the floor, which is very flimsy, easily kicked by accident, and breaks easily. If it does, the tilt will either stick where it is or flop up and down freely. (Internationals use the familiar column-mounted lever, like a car.) The FL city horn is operated by a tiny button in the centre of the steering wheel. (The IH's entire hub is a horn pad, with a second button for the optional air horn.) The stereo reception ranges from bad to nonexistent, with the dash-mounted speakers pointed AWAY from the occupants. (IH has better reception, with speakers mounted in the rear of the cab and above the windshield.) The grab handles are inside the doors, and are tight enough they are difficult to grab with gloves on. (Internationals have handles mounted OUTSIDE the cab, on the B-pillar.) The only storage is a tiny, narrow, shallow slot (maybe an inch high) above the stereo...and that cubby gets hot winter or summer! (International has a large rectangular slot, perhaps 5x7" and deep enough for CD cases or even an iPad, above the cupholders.)

Basically: the Freightliners are noisy, uncomfortable penalty boxes, built strictly by bean-counters and making no attempt to hide the fact that not one single designer has ever driven one. The IH's drive like they were designed and built by someone who drove them, and are civilized enough to commute in!


Posted By: carringb on 08/25/12 07:46pm

Hmmm... Well I guess our M2 better be reliable enough to make up for all those shortcomings.

The Durastars make us a lot of money, which is why we know we won't ever buy one. Last week we had to take care of a 2013 with 700 miles on it, and unable to move under its own power. Some days we'll have to rescue more than one for the same customer! Our service area isn't very big. Plus, their "Advanced EGR" really means "our trucks burn the most fuel".

So yeah, you're right. In the MDT world your diesel choices are either bad, or worse.


Posted By: Jarlaxle on 08/26/12 06:12am

I would go with a Dura-Star and figure a way to delete the EGR and associated BS. I would not own a Freightliner M2 if you gave it to me. In your position...honestly, I would bite the bullet, sell the M2, eat the loss, and either get a gas F-550, get a used (pre-2007) IH, or wait until the V10 F650 is available. There is just no way I can do justice to how BAD the M2 actually is.


Posted By: mikeputc on 08/26/12 12:39pm

The all-new Ford Transit fullsize van will replace E-Series. Transit starts production in Kansas City in 2013. After E-Series cargo and passenger van production ends in Ohio, F-650/F-750 and F53/F59 production moves in.


Posted By: carringb on 08/26/12 03:54pm

Jarlaxle wrote:

I would go with a Dura-Star and figure a way to delete the EGR and associated BS. I would not own a Freightliner M2 if you gave it to me. In your position...honestly, I would bite the bullet, sell the M2, eat the loss, and either get a gas F-550, get a used (pre-2007) IH, or wait until the V10 F650 is available. There is just no way I can do justice to how BAD the M2 actually is.


Well being non-emissions compliant is a no-go for us. Too risky, especially operating in a town with lots of people with too much time looking for things they don't like. As much as you like the IH, we cannot afford the downtime. That is is why we rushed to buy the M2. The GMC TopKick is it replacing has become so problematic it is being retired early. Between city's ambulances, the local school busses, and Penske, those IH trucks keep us very busy. Good for us. Not for our customers. We don't want to be in their shoes.

We are shopping for some V10 450s/550s now, but they will re-chassis our smaller trucks. The M2 will be wearing a new 16-ton Jerr-Dann body so a class 5 won't quite cut it. Hopefully it works out.... If not, we would probably suck it up and re-mount the body on a 650/V10.


Posted By: Jarlaxle on 08/26/12 07:02pm

Then I would go used. I would not own any diesel made after 2007 if you GAVE it to me. It is just not worth it anymore.

Note: last check, our three 6.7-powered M2's (220 and 240HP) are averaging between 6.5 and 8MPG. The Durastar (225) is getting mid-7's. The two Cat-powered M2's (210 and 250) are averaging between 8 and 9.

We have another M2 that is out of service because one of the spring mounts is COMING LOOSE FROM THE FRAMERAIL! It has about 120,000 miles. Words cannot express just how BAD these trucks are!

What about a Hino?


Posted By: carringb on 08/27/12 12:18am

Jarlaxle wrote:

Then I would go used. I would not own any diesel made after 2007 if you GAVE it to me. It is just not worth it anymore.

Note: last check, our three 6.7-powered M2's (220 and 240HP) are averaging between 6.5 and 8MPG. The Durastar (225) is getting mid-7's. The two Cat-powered M2's (210 and 250) are averaging between 8 and 9.

We have another M2 that is out of service because one of the spring mounts is COMING LOOSE FROM THE FRAMERAIL! It has about 120,000 miles. Words cannot express just how BAD these trucks are!

What about a Hino?


The Hino trucks come up short on power. We got the Mercedes 7.2L.

Getting a pre-'07 MDT is actually really tough. Our target for MDTs is 500,000 miles, and going that old means we'd be halfway there already. We may also try a Peterbilt MDT in the future with the Paccar motor. But when comparing chassis specs to the F-series, the mini-Pete comes out behind, but it costs more.


Posted By: carringb on 08/27/12 01:14am

BTW - I just noticed Toyota doesn't put their own Aisin auto in their Hino trucks? Guess that says about the same thing as Ford not using their 6.7L in their MDTs....

On a related note: I think our 2nd Aisin trans is on its way out. At least we finally got the first one back with its new trans a few days ago.


Posted By: blt2ski on 08/27/12 07:13am

Bryan,

I remember a number of yrs ago, Hino bought local ie made in NA parts so the drivetrain was known by users etc around here, along with easier to get parts cheaper for repairs etc. Hence why you do not see the Aisin tranny vs allisons etc.

My personal feeling, is it is going to take a yr or two or three for the engineers to work out the bugs if you can call them that, that the new regs have brought on the diesel motor manufactures.

Marty


Posted By: Lessmore on 08/27/12 01:09pm

Jarlaxle wrote:

When my current truck (an awful Freightliner M2) is replaced (next fall, I think), I will be SO happy if the replacement is an F-650 with V10 power. I'll take an F-650 XLT with the V10/6R140, 12,000lb front axle, 20,000lb rear axle, leaf springs all around, 295/75R22.5 tires on powdercoated steelies, CD player, buckets & console, heated mirrors, 60-gallon fuel tank, and chrome bumper & grille delete. Make it a 26' Whiting box, 102" wide, 12'6" high, with a 5000lb capacity rail liftgate. I will even willingly give up air brakes and standard shift to get away from the new diesel disasters!


That's what you'd like...but what do you think you'll probably get ?


Posted By: Jarlaxle on 08/27/12 05:01pm

Unfortunately, probably a Fruitliner with a 6.7 or IH with a DEF motor. Maybe an F650 with a Cummins...though between the extra cost of the truck, diesel fuel costing more, the awful mileage of the new emission diesels, the durability of the V10, Ford offering a FACTORY dual-fuel CNG/LPG conversion for the V10, and the problems with the new diesels makes me getting a V10 F650 a very real possibility.

The fact a V10 F650 is a solid eight grand less than one with a Cummins doesn't hurt, either.

* This post was edited 08/27/12 07:24pm by Jarlaxle *


Posted By: RobertRyan on 08/29/12 05:21am

Perrysburg Dodgeboy wrote:

Tell me it's not so.....Ford's building trucks in Mexico . Why would anyone want a V-10 gas in a 650/750 truck . But at the end of the story it say this.

I mentioned the fact that Ford is putting the small V10 Petrol engine into a Medium Duty Truck, to a fellow who owns several HDT Diesel rigs.
Outside of the fact that your MDT's are a lot lighter than what we run here, his reaction was "What???". Petrol (Gas)Trucks started disappearing in the 1960's and were pretty well dead in the 1970's in Australia.


Posted By: carringb on 08/29/12 10:11am

RobertRyan wrote:


I mentioned the fact that Ford is putting the small V10 Petrol engine into a Medium Duty Truck, to a fellow who owns several HDT Diesel rigs.
Outside of the fact that your MDT's are a lot lighter than what we run here, his reaction was "What???". Petrol (Gas)Trucks started disappearing in the 1960's and were pretty well dead in the 1970's in Australia.


Define "A lot lighter". Our F650s get close to 40,000 pounds loaded. Our new Freightliner M2 will see much heavier loads. Our HDTs can top 150,000 pounds.

Have you ever driven a V10-power truck? Performance is pretty good, it's silky smooth, and almost silent at idle.

Maybe Australia hasn't had its diesels ruined with new emissions regs, but our trucks have been putting the V10 on par with the newer diesels for fuel economy.

Now that Australia is in the midst of some of the world's largest Natural Gas products, I suspect it's only a matter of time before you start seeing some CNG-capable V10s over there. Once you convert a compression ignition engine over to spark ignition, they lose all advantages vs starting with a factory spark ignition motor.


Posted By: rjstractor on 08/29/12 10:18am

RobertRyan wrote:

I mentioned the fact that Ford is putting the small V10 Petrol engine into a Medium Duty Truck, to a fellow who owns several HDT Diesel rigs.
Outside of the fact that your MDT's are a lot lighter than what we run here, his reaction was "What???". Petrol (Gas)Trucks started disappearing in the 1960's and were pretty well dead in the 1970's in Australia.


Different scenario here. The new diesel emission standards that were enacted in 2008, whether they make any sense or not, changed the face of diesel engines in the US. The systems required to meet those standards make our diesel engines burn more fuel and make them less reliable. For example, the fire truck I work on has to be parked for 20-40 minutes about every 5 days to do an active regeneration to burn soot out of the DPF. In a years time it's been out of service several times to correct emission system issues.

The fact that the V10 costs $8,000 less than the diesel and does not have any of the emission system issues will possibly make up for lower fuel mileage.

Gas engines were pretty much unheard of in MDTs here after the late 70's here as well. If not for the 2008 diesel emission standards that would still be the case.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 08/29/12 02:54pm

Carringb wrote:


Define "A lot lighter". Our F650s get close to 40,000 pounds loaded. Our new Freightliner M2 will see much heavier loads. Our HDTs can top 150,000 pounds.


A Normal Over the road load for a MDT can go to 90,000lbs. In the US , the Hino, the best selling MDT has a GCVWR of 48,000lbs. Freightliner M2
has GVW of 56,000lbs. The small 6.8 Litre V10 would be hard pressed to move 90,000lbs at a reasonable pace. US MDT's have a normal over the road limit of 80,000lbs, 140,000lbs for B doubles.
Australian Normal over the road goes to 144,000lbs. B-Doubles(now B Triples) 120 tonnes, 244,000lb. Road Trains 200 tones, 440,00lbs.

Carringb wrote:

Now that Australia is in the midst of some of the world's largest Natural Gas products, I suspect it's only a matter of time before you start seeing some CNG-capable V10s over there.


They already us GNG on Diesel Buses for urban usage. LPI is used for Cars(Performance V8's) and Utes. LNG is being introduced for use on long haul HDT Trucks. Diesel is replacing Petrol powered Pickups. Diesel powered Pickups accounted for 93 % of all Pickups on Australian roads. Ford, Mazda, Isuzu, Holden Colorado, Nissan, Mitsubishi and VW have dropped their petrol Options. Only The Toyota Hilux has a 4 V6 Litre Petrol option.

* This post was edited 08/29/12 03:06pm by RobertRyan *


Posted By: RobertRyan on 08/29/12 04:07pm

rjstrator wrote:

Different scenario here. The new diesel emission standards that were enacted in 2008, whether they make any sense or not, changed the face of diesel engines in the US. The systems required to meet those standards make our diesel engines burn more fuel and make them less reliable. For example, the fire truck I work on has to be parked for 20-40 minutes about every 5 days to do an active regeneration to burn soot out of the DPF. I


Sounds familar. We have Bluetec and Urea.


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