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RE: Lance TC - lithium - DC-DC charger question

AFAIK the input should be from the truck battery not from the alternator. Something about protecting the alt in case load cut off for some reason IIRC like BMS might do
BFL13 05/16/22 07:40am Truck Campers
RE: Lance TC - lithium - DC-DC charger question

Another factor is to keep the input voltage high enough so the DC-DC buck/boost converter can maintain the set output amps and voltage to the camper battery. This is a separate issue from fusing the input side for its wire size, and having the input wire gauge match the input amps. To achieve that you have to oversize the input gauge wiring beyond what is required to carry the input amps safely. Eg to maintain 14.7v and constant rated output amps to the camper batt, you want say 13v input, despite the DC-DC boost spec that it says it can do it with input as low as maybe 10v. Not mine anyway! Needs higher input voltage. One way that worked for my set-up is to run the positive cable as say your 6 AWG, but use the truck frame for the neg input path. it is the total R on the circuit that matters, so going fatter on the neg only helps quite a bit to lower total R. Some folks run fatter wire for both pos and neg but I have no easy route from the truck engine batt back to the truck bed to go to the camper. However it is easy to connect the neg DC-DC input wire to the truck bed as a short wire run. I use the 7-pin (6-pin) 12v wire which is way too thin for the pos input to the camper where the DC -DC is, because it already has its route through the truck, but make up for that being too thin with the truck frame being the neg path which is like really fat wire. I ran some tests and at first using both pos and neg 7-pin wires the DC-DC could not hold its output spec because the input voltage drop was too great. Swapping to the truck frame for the neg input path solved that, just barely, but it does the job now. Oversizing the input gauge like that also means the Dc-DCdoes not need to pull as many amps from the truck battery and so the alternator. I do not have an isolator in the Chev, like a Ford has. To turn on the Renogy DC-DC I ran the little B+ wire around to the input pos side with a simple on off switch in that wire. All in the camper. So I turn it on and off manually as needed
BFL13 05/15/22 09:28pm Truck Campers
RE: Upgrading converter

Yes but each stage is at a fixed voltage. You can't adapt for temperature or various battery specs as with an adjustable voltage charger
BFL13 05/15/22 07:16pm Tech Issues
RE: Upgrading converter

With the WFCO it should be at 13.6ish now and it is. Good to go! :) You will only see the WFCO go into boost if it sees that 13.2v trigger, which it might if your batts are really low when you start the recharge. Many people never see theirs do 14.4 the way their RVs are set up. The PowerMax goes into boost at first every time it starts (I have those) and then drops to 13.6 after a set time. Depends on the model how long a time it stays at 14.x. Some were only for 15 minutes same as Iota's 15 minutes. The newer LK models do 30 minutes. That is too short in many cases. However, you can choose to use the LK model in its adjustable voltage mode, where you dial in say 14.7v and it stays there till you dial in some other voltage. That is perfect! You leave it at 14.7 until the batts are truly full (near zero amps and SG right up) and then you dial in 13.6 and it stays there till you change it. I am not sure you can get at the adjustment dials with the MBA LK lower portion installed like in their picture. Seems to me it has to go in facing the other way to put the adjustment dials up front where you can get at them. No trouble with the deck mount LK of course--set it down how you like. The PD might do 14.4 at first depending on what it "sees" but you can use the Charge Wizard to make it kick up to the 14.4 and it stays there for four hours. That works too but you can't pick other voltages. Since off grid you only do 50-90s at most or 50-80s on gen time you just leave the LK at 14.7 and shut off the gen when you like. The batts will not be full but be as high as you have time for. Then at home, you plug in and at 14.7 get them full and now dial in 13.6 until next time. Gottaluvit Your no- load amps look very good. There are always some tiny loads like the LP alarm or radio memory. Good idea to have a spare charger along anyway even if you are on shore power in case the converter dies. You can carry on getting 12v from battery and recharge as required with your portable charger plugged into shore power. It is not a converter so you can't just leave it on. So you don't have to go home. "Be Prepared" Ok so IMO your best bet is leave the WFCO as is, and get one of these as your portable charger (assuming you have a 2000w gen, not a 1000) https://www.boatandrvaccessories.com/products/powermax-pm3-60lk-12-volts-60-amp-power-converter-battery-charger-w-led-light?_pos=4&_sid=31694406c&_ss=r
BFL13 05/15/22 05:17pm Tech Issues
RE: Upgrading converter

The bad cells could have been damaged if the batteries were dropped maybe before you bought them), who knows. Doubt had anything to do with the trickle charger, but you can check its voltage too, same way--use your voltmeter on its clamps You plug in the RV and that should power up the WFCO, but it needs 120v not lower than 105v so if on a long cord from the house check the 120v value in the RV when the WFCO is running. You measure the converter's voltage with your voltmeter- best place is at the converter's terminals, but when installed you can use the "battery wire lugs" on the DC fuse panel- easier to get at. You can use the wire ends that go on the battery too. Should be 13.6ish. You said it was 14.65? What is it now? Guys here can say what's what depending on the answer. You want a 35a converter to go in there although a higher amp would charge those 6s faster and not mean so long of a gen run time. BUT the RV wiring and fuses are for 35 amps so stick with that. BUT if you do want faster charging and less gen time to get those 6s recharged off grid you can do that with a different battery charger that has higher amps that you can take along. You don't have to recharge with just the WFCO. PowerMax and PD make replacement lower portion "MBAs" for the WFCO if it turns out you need a new converter. If you can't get one in time for the upcoming trip, you don't need to use the WFCO at all so no panic. You can operate on battery and use a portable charger with the gen to recharge the batts as needed. BTW the pair of 6s will easily take 60 amps charging but it is hard to find a typical charger with that many amps. So you could buy a 60 amp deck mount converter and use that as your portable charger--but the generator has to be able to run that. Needs a 2000 not a 1000. So you are all set whatever shape the WFCO is in. To look for a mystery draw, turn off the charger. See what amps are being pulled. Then take out each fuse in the DC panel one at a time and note the amps draw each time. Note some draws are not fused at the panel. Slides and jacks and radio and LP alarm normally from the battery directly so to capture all the amps use the neg battery to frame "ground" wire. Unless there are other load neg wires to check on the neg battery post Or use each individual pos wire to the battery.
BFL13 05/15/22 02:28pm Tech Issues
RE: Upgrading converter

First thing is the batteries while being charged get up to a higher voltage than what they rest at when fully charged and not being charged. So 14.6 if that is what the charger gets them to and then after they stay at that until fully charged (amps have tapered right down, and hydrometer says SG is up to where it belongs when fully charged--say 1.285 or whatever then they sit at 12.75 or whatever. Takes time for that voltage to fall and until it gets down to 12.75 say they are passing through 13 on the way down, that is called a "surface charge" the amount it is over "resting" voltage. Second thing is the battery can look good from its voltage before any load is on it, then once loaded, the voltage will drop somewhat depending on the amps being drawn by the load. eg if batts are at 12.6 and the furnace comes on, it might be showing 12.4 or whatever. BUT if the furnace comes on and voltage drops to 12.0, then you know the batts are "collapsing under load" so out comes the Visa card. :( Meanwhile, the converter (with 120v input) with no battery in the RV is supposed to show 13.6ish and run the 12v things. It too might collapse under load or have a weird voltage that is too high like 18v or whatever. With the WFCO if the battery is connected and the battery is low enough so the battery voltage stays under 13.2v (the trigger amount) for its initial spike, then the WFCO should kick into 14.4v. Many don't for various reasons ever see that low of an initial spike so they stay at 13.6 and only do a slow charge on the battery. So yes, two separate things to look at before connecting the battery, then see what happens. Your overnight drop in battery voltage could still be from an unknown mystery draw. If you have an ammeter or battery monitor that shows amps, you can see if there is an amps draw right away where it might not show as a voltage sag until some time has passed. Some mystery draws that have been found include 12v tank heaters, somebody pulled the emergency brake switch on a trailer, TV antenna booster, 12v lights in underside compartments left on with doors closed so you can't see the light is on, 7-pin connected and the tow vehicle is drawing from the RV battery (happens with Chevs--no isolator like a Ford has) If going to get batteries load tested they are supposed to be full when the test is done.
BFL13 05/15/22 12:02pm Tech Issues
RE: Lifepo4 float setting?

"I never mentioned any spicific vendor", Here is what you said. Me: I got that from the Solacity guy. You: ya that is how a lot of the misconceptions around here got started. prople taking a sales pitch as gospel To prove your knowledge that something is a misconception, you need to show your own measurements or a link to somebody else's.
BFL13 05/15/22 07:25am Tech Issues
RE: Upgrading converter

Right. I took it that it only spiked to 12.x starting from a way lower voltage Odd the WFCO did 14.4 without a battery How did it see the under 13.2v trigger?
BFL13 05/14/22 06:52pm Tech Issues
RE: AGM Deep Cycle batteries

Do you have a monitor that shows amps and volts so you can tell when during being charged at constant 14.4v they are down to 1/2 an amp per 100AH of bank ? Do you have a charger that stays at 14.4v until amps get to that at which time you are supposed to drop the voltage to 13.x? How do you get your charger to do that when you want it to and not before? Can your charger meet the 20% charging rate specs for Trojan, Lifeline, etc AGMs ? Is your gen big enough to run the charger doing that many amps? If so, good to go
BFL13 05/14/22 06:46pm Tech Issues
RE: Upgrading converter

"I did measure the red and white leads coming from the converter with no battery hooked up and it measured 14.65 (aprox). I measured the white ground and red lead in the battery compartment and it read the same. I then hooked up the batteries and measured, 12.something, don't recall the exact number. That tells me that when not hooked up the converter is trying to charge at max level, then when hooked up it is going into float mode? maybe?.." The converter is working properly. When you connect to low batteries you will now see the battery voltage up to where the converter has charged it so far. With time the battery voltage will rise through the 12s and 13s to the 14s until it is fully charged. The WFCO only stays at 14.4 for four hours, which may not be enough time to get the batteries to 14.4 so you could then start over by unplugging the 120v from the WFCO (or the whole RV) and then plug back in. That should get you another four hours of 14.4 to get more time to get the batteries fully charged. After they get to 14.4 they may be only 80% charged so now they have to hold at 14.4 for a while when amps taper down to near zero at which time the batts are full and can be dropped to charging at 13.x. Hours and hours maybe. Once they are fully charged the WFCO can be at 13.6 as normal for when camping and plugged in. If plugged in and not camping, then with no 12v activity for a day or two (whatever) it should drop to 13.2v for "storage" to "Float" the battery. What you want to know is the voltage of the batteries before you connect to the WFCO. Since they are 12.x connected, that means they must have been 11.x or lower before, which is almost "dead". So whatever happened when they were out of the rig was bad for them. Should have been on a "maintenance charger". I have four GC15 6v 230AH batts in the Class C and they are excellent.
BFL13 05/14/22 05:54pm Tech Issues
RE: Lifepo4 float setting?

Not to be naggy, but (since SiO2’s have already been mentioned…), I wonder if BFL may have done some similar extensive ‘nuts & bolts’ bench-top vetting of his SiO2 (with BFL, highly likely!), and if so, perhaps he might be willing to share his findings with us??…Nothing wrong with asking I hope, and may serve well to refute a few SiO2 misnomers….Just a random thought… 3 tons Did that around Nov 2020 and later. I can't work the archives with any luck, but you can try. Not for this thread though!
BFL13 05/14/22 01:34pm Tech Issues
RE: Lifepo4 float setting?

Itinerant1, yes you are not in a position to do the sort of testing and make the kind of graphs I would like to see. Some other guys could though. Just not the kind of thing many guys would like to do it seems.
BFL13 05/14/22 11:10am Tech Issues
RE: Lifepo4 float setting?

StirCrazy if your claim is that the Solacity guy's info is just a sales pitch with wrong info about LFPs, it is your job to provide links to the correct, more credible, version of that information to prove your claim. FWIW, I don't read it as a sales pitch, and I am one who got all kinds of abuse from you LFP guys on here last year or so for my complaints about LFP sales pitches having bogus info. I am still getting abuse from 3-tons. :) Meanwhile he just used the Solacity guy as a reference in a recent post in this thread (13 May at 0732), and then when after that, I used the Solacity guy as a ref, he said that guy is not to be believed! Makes you laugh. When I posted test results of my various field tests of various RV equipments to show what they did, I had to explain how I measured things to indicate how credible those results were. It is no good making arm- wavy claims about LFP performance without any graphs , tables, and especially the whole scenario for how those measurements were made. EG, if I had LFPs I would already have run some cycles and made graphs to see what really happens at various charging rates same as I did years ago to make my ugly graph using FLAs. Barre's book on 12v taught me how to do that. So let's see some graphs and tables you LFP guys have made from your measurements and indicate how you got those numbers so they can be peer reviewed here by guys who can see if your results are credible. itinerant1 has posted many tables of how his system performs, but they don't show graphs of charging profiles at various rates with times, which the Solacity guy claims to have seen but did not show.
BFL13 05/14/22 10:04am Tech Issues
RE: Lifepo4 float setting?

You need 14.x to get those ions moving better. Once there you can lower the voltage Lower charging voltage than 14.6 needs more time so keep Float voltage same as Bulk longer too till desired SOC is reachedI respectfully disagree. I got that from the Solacity guy. https://www.solacity.com/how-to-keep-lifepo4-lithium-ion-batteries-happy/ "So what Voltage is enough to get those ions moving? A little experimenting shows that 13.6 Volt (3.4V per cell) is the cut-off point; below that very little happens, while above that the battery will get at least 95% full given enough time. At 14.0 Volt (3.5V per cell) the battery easily charges up to 95+ percent with a few hours absorb time and for all intents and purposes there is little difference in charging between 14.0 or higher Voltages, things just happen a little faster at 14.2 Volt and above." He says longer "absorption time" which to me means after the battery reaches the set high voltage of the charger (controller for solar) so not sure that he means amps also taper for longer starting from a lower SOC like happens with fast charging a FLA. On that, he has the LFP fast charging at 50% rate getting to 90% before amps taper, then says using the lower charging rate of 14 vs 14.6 means it gets to 95% before amps taper so that is kind of like FLA but not clear to me it is from the same battery chemistry internal whatever goings on. EDIT--he had the 90 vs 95 when using the high charging rate as well as 14.6, so not clear that you do go higher in SOC before amps taper just from using a lower charging voltage (at what charging rate?)--but how can absorb time be longer and also get to a higher SOC before tapering Can't be both. With a "few hours absorb time" I assume the usual notion that you only need ten or twenty minutes for LFPs does not apply at those lower than 14.6v charging rates. With the longer absorb time I tacked on the idea in the Garage post earlier to keep Float at Bulk for longer too ISTR Battle Born says voltage has to be 14.2 or so to even be able to balance their LFPs, but if you are not planning to do that, a lower charging voltage won't matter for I suppose. time2roll always preferred slower charging for FLAs too
BFL13 05/13/22 10:03am Tech Issues
RE: Lifepo4 float setting?

You need 14.x to get those ions moving better. Once there you can lower the voltage Lower charging voltage than 14.6 needs more time so keep Float voltage same as Bulk longer too till desired SOC is reached
BFL13 05/13/22 08:41am Tech Issues
RE: Lifepo4 float setting?

The Garage guy is just saying what I had to do when on solar with the controller I used that would get the batt to Vabs set at 14.8 in my case, then drop to Float (which was adjustable) with no time at all in Absorb. That happened before the battery was full and would leave the rest of the day in Float at low amps. So I had to set Float to the same as Bulk to keep the amps up till the battery was Full and could now drop to a lower Float voltage. EP solar controller uses a standard charging profile where it stays in Bulk voltage 14.x for two hours (Absorb time) after getting the batt to that voltage, then it drops to Float 13.x automatically. If the battery is not yet full after the two hours, too bad. So it is good to have Float voltage adjustable on the controller and also good if you can pick your Absorb time. Same for any type of battery, not just LFP. You need the monitor to know the battery SOC because the controller only knows what amps it is sending along, not where they are going-loads or battery or some to each. The monitor not the controller tells you when the batt is full so you know it is ok to have the controller at the lower Float voltage and so at lower amps.
BFL13 05/13/22 07:42am Tech Issues
RE: Lifepo4 float setting?

"I'm still confused about float with LFP batteries..Is it better to be in float or bulk the majority of the time? Off-Grid Garage say's one should set float and bulk the same therefor it is in bulk mode charging when the sun is out vs floating or using battery capacity." Seems to be mixing two different things. Float voltage setting for the controller vs Float Stage for the battery. You don't want the controller to be in Float voltage until after the battery is full. Now the battery can go to Float Stage while solar now in Float (after Bulk) can run loads. Running loads while the controller is in Bulk voltage will reduce the amps going towards charging the battery so best to wait until after the battery is full (except LFP does not have to be full--so running loads might take priority in some scenarios ) Meanwhile if the question is about the LFP Float Stage, you do want that to be at the lower voltage per battery spec. Also just to confuse things-- your Victron monitor wants the charging parameter voltage used to decide when the battery is full (along with tail current and a time for that) to be related to the battery's Float voltage.
BFL13 05/13/22 07:07am Tech Issues
RE: Lifepo4 float setting?

Everyone knows that the charging efficiency of LFPs is 99% while it is only 94% for FLAsThe real difference is the last 20% or 30% when FLA is tapering amps and LFP is putting all available solar into the battery. And since FLA starts at 50% only half the power goes in direct at full current. (50% charged to 75% charged) YMMV depending on size of solar and battery. Well FLA taper- starting SOC depends on the charging rate so at 20% that would be at about 80% SOC but at 10% it would be more like 90% SOC for end of constant amps. For sure it would be in the higher 90s for LFP. With solar, amps are tapering all afternoon from the sun getting lower, so very hard to tell if amps are tapering from that or from reaching Vabs . And with the lowering sun making fewer amps in the afternoon that is less of a charging rate and even higher SOC before amps taper from that. On solar doing shallow cycles with FLA getting to Full most days in the afternoon, I found it hard to tell which was making amps taper more at the high SOCs. So the time difference where amps are tapering with FLA vs LFP on solar is not so many minutes at typical RV low solar charging rates. That still leaves their charging efficiency differences though at say 5% faster for LFP I think the big advantage for LFPs is the allowed high discharge rates so you can run high amp things on inverter even at a lower SOC with a smaller size bank such as for a smaller RV.
BFL13 05/12/22 11:05pm Tech Issues
RE: Lifepo4 float setting?

What is HUGE to 3 tons may not be so many minutes to other folks. "…rapid harvest recovery makes the HUGE difference, 30+ dc amps of solar per hour (associated around peak period) is often realistically achievable" Everyone knows that the charging efficiency of LFPs is 99% while it is only 94% for FLAs The same exact "harvest" applied to each in a side by side comparison would be EG, average 20 amps for 8 hours that day = 160AH input from solar= For the LFP- 480 minutes plus 1% in time = 4.8 more =484.8 minutes. The FLA bank would take 6% over 480 = 28.8 = 508.8 minutes So starting at say 0700 on a nice sunny day all day the the 160AH recharge is done by: LFP-- at 1504.8 in the afternoon, and FLA-- at 1528.8 or 24 minutes longer to get there 3 tons thinks that is HUGE? Based on his actual LFP actual ownership side by side comparison testing in the field of course. (Or is that going down the rabbit hole pontificating with a calculator just to annoy him?--if so sorry about that! :) )
BFL13 05/12/22 08:02pm Tech Issues
RE: Renogy Battery Monitor vs Trimetric UPDATE

I did set capacity as 200AH and voltage as 14.7 and left the other parameters blank for now. On recharging with the charger set to 14.7, the monitor gets to where it shows the batt reaching 14.6v and amps are down to under 1 amp and the batt picture has risen back to 200AH. It is not up to 14.7v yet on the monitor (might be set at 14.6 on the charger, hard to tell exactly), but is where the batts are Full by specs. With the Tri, I would now reset the AH counter to Zero and drop the charger to eg 13.4 Float and walk away. With the Renogy I have no clue (yet) so I just drop the charger to 13.4ish, but no idea if that 200 will be seen again after another down and up. Is that battery attenuation setting for charging efficiency? Another mystery. That would affect estimated SOC if so.
BFL13 05/12/22 06:37pm Tech Issues
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