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RE: Anyone using Lithium batteries? Comments?

Ok, the BB site does have a 12-12 version on page 2 of their "shop". Sterling has some explanation of all this for newer vehicles with REGEN systems where the alternator can get to higher voltages than the House batts can withstand. Very interesting if you have a newer C.
BFL13 10/28/20 10:23am Class C Motorhomes
RE: House and Engine Battery -Update 2-Surge? REGEN threat!

Not sure where Mex's solution would fit in with this scenario, but meanwhile, looking at alternator protection, there is some idea here that a surge could come from a broken cable. Not clear to me-anybody comment? Looking into their DC-DC gizmo to see what it does re 24-12 with a 12v engine battery. Will post if find anything. EDIT--found it! they are actually 12-12. BB does have the 12-12, but on page 2 of their "shop" (didn't see that before). Anyway this blurb (long) explains the regen alternator system in new vehicles and how that can wreck your House batts unless you use one of these gizmos.
BFL13 10/28/20 09:42am Tech Issues
RE: questions.... I have them.. :D

Haha thanks for the link BFL! We don't have Princess Auto down here in the states and I've only seen that type can in red for gasoline. So you don't need a funnel but you still need a chair... I use a collapsible 20L jug that stores easy. Whole bunch of them you can get at stateside on here. Some with the spouts that would work. 10L size would be easier to lift up for pouring. The same blue 20L is there too, scroll down.
BFL13 10/28/20 06:31am Tech Issues
RE: atwood 7920 hydro flame furnace

Is it a 7920 or a 7920-ll? bunch of stuff here to look up--manuals and videos and previous threads.
BFL13 10/27/20 09:51am Tech Issues
RE: questions.... I have them.. :D

Not much use for OP yet, but BurbMan can note this does not need a funnel. It is for potable water. Only thing is it is heavy when full! I have to stand on a chair beside the gravity fill to get the can high enough to pour it in, and it gets lighter as it empties but not fast enough that it is not a strain on you for the first while. Works though! Of course, you don't have to fill it, but then it is more trips to the water tap to fill the RV. Also you need a short hose to go from the water tap to the can for filling it, depending on where the water tap is. I have also used a water pump that fits on an electric drill and used that from the RV's inverter, pulling water up from an open bucket. MSW inverter has the drill turn slower (my impression anyway) but it was enough for this job.
BFL13 10/26/20 11:55am Tech Issues
RE: Anyone using Lithium batteries? Comments?

They sent a 60amp Lithium battery charger for generator/shore power and a Sterling power battery to battery DC charger for chassis battery/alternator charging while driving. It’s also a surge protector for overload surge back feed to alternator. Both designed for use with their battery. Put my trust in their knowledge and expertise and hoping for the best. So far so good ??. And the fishing sucks but beautiful weather on the island. Heavier winds coming which should help fishing ?? The Battleborn Sterling DC-DC on their site is 24-12, so how can you use that in a MH? Do you have a 24v engine battery? What is the scenario for a surge from House to Engine side? BTW, their 60 amp "Li battery charger" is just a PD converter set to single voltage (not three stage) at 14.6 ish (seen different values for 14.x on that) and the advice seems to be to disconnect it from the Li after the Li is charged up--ie. Do not float at 14.x for very long. Or is that wrong and yours does drop to 13.6ish for floating? Suggest confirm output of that PD converter is not over the Battleborn limit of ISTR 14.6. ISTR some of those "Li PDs" are at 14.8 Hope you can clarify how all that actually works, as this is new tech that many of us are trying to understand. Thanks.
BFL13 10/25/20 08:32am Class C Motorhomes
RE: House and Engine Battery -Update 2-Surge? REGEN threat!

Over in the class C forum, there is this about Battleborn Li and using a DC-DC as surge protector too: What is that about? Does it relate to this thread's topic? The Stirling gizmo and the PD 60 amper for Li (we know how that works! or not--ie don't leave it on for long etc) So would the same sort of thing apply with an SiO2 for the house battery? What is the surge threat? Thanks
BFL13 10/24/20 03:23pm Tech Issues
RE: SiO2 ? -UPDATE Tests.

I don’t use an inverter but I do camp in cold weather / cloudy conditions etc. I am an electrical dummy so I have a couple questions: Do these batteries charge at the same rate or faster than flooded? Lithium is off the table for me due to cold weather requirements. I could put one inside in the heat but I don’t need batteries I can wreck ... My recent long post on testing the SiO2 covers the topic of faster charging. Quick answer is only a little faster to do a "50-90", and same time to do a "50-80". Faster in the 80-90. You only do 90-100 on shore power anyway when time doesn't matter. Charging limit is 25 amps per 100AH batt, so I had to not use my 55 amp converter now that I have only the one battery. If you have two for 200AH, you can still use the 55 amper. (2.5 over on each batt won't matter) Sounds like you would benefit just as well for more capacity when it is cold out with two AGMs inside as you could with SiO2s at half the price per battery AH. (not wanting to re-open that 80AH is 80AH, one =two thread again!!! :) ) And you can still use your converter on the 200AH.
BFL13 10/23/20 07:35pm Tech Issues
RE: SiO2 ? -UPDATE Tests.

DW makes her nachos in the MW. Not worth my life to have no working MW when it's her nacho time! :) I had AGMs, but "batteries don't die, they are murdered" happened somehow, so it is wet 6s in the MH and an SiO2 in the TC for us.
BFL13 10/23/20 07:18pm Tech Issues
RE: SiO2 ? -UPDATE Tests.

BFL13 - what’s your opinion on installing these inside the living space on a truck camper? I have an external vented box now that’s out in the cold. I’m using flooded batts now. I might be passing through Kelowna in a couple or three weeks... The SiO2 is a modified AGM which is a sealed battery that should not vent any gas unless it is way overcharged, so IMO extremely low risk. I kept ordinary AGMs inside the living space in the MH and was not worried. I have an awkward situation in the TC where I can't get a big inverter near the proper battery box to have short fat wiring between them. I had to put the battery inside under the closet floor where it is PITA to get at. So I have mine inside, no worries for gassing. However, ordinary AGM can't handle the MW high draw (unless I had two in there) so I have the single SiO2 in there. (same price as two AGMs at 200AH--but still only 100AH for time between recharges) If the only reason is to get them inside where it is warmer to have more capacity out of the cold, ordinary AGMs could do that.
BFL13 10/23/20 05:16pm Tech Issues
RE: SiO2 ? -UPDATE Tests.

How to know it is all the way full? It is a modified AGM, so where an AGM wants amps to taper to 0.5/100AH at 14.x (by actual specs for that AGM), the info for this SiO2 says 0.2/100AH (as I understand it) The maintenance charger was supposed to finish the recharge overnight but it was at its 13.4v, so to make sure, this morning I used an adjustable voltage converter set to 14.7 and amps quickly settled at 0.1. Mex told about the "wall" with AGMs so I tried that. Cranked voltage to 15.3 and amps jumped to 4.5 but then immediately fell off back down to 0.3. So that is the "wall" and this battery is as full as it can get IMO. So I will put the new battery in service and see how it goes from here. It does check out to do what I want it for, where other batteries won't/didn't. Too late now anyway--bought and paid for whatever the future holds :)
BFL13 10/23/20 11:27am Tech Issues
RE: House and Engine Battery -Update 2-Surge? REGEN threat!

My battery book (by Barre) says with batteries in parallel, the battery with a lower internal resistance supplies a greater amount of current to a load than the battery with the higher internal resistance. That looks like what Mex just said, that you need to know if the one battery is at 50% while the other is not that far down. I suppose that is what a BMS does with Li banks. No BMS with SiO2. The batteries will never be exactly equal in construction or degree of sulphation on the plates, to have exactly equal internal R but same type and age sure helps with that. So, looking up on internal resistance, problem! There is DC and AC methods for measuring it, and AC method is better for loads like inductive motors vs heaters and it all gets complicated. Except AC method is impedance Z, not ir R. Whatever! I don't know if the draw from a MW on an inverter (seen as inductive by the inverter) is also seen as inductive by the battery the inverter is on. Anyway, charging ahead regardless: Car battery - 0.02 Ohms (whatever that is in mOhms--brain quit!) 100AH 27 size AGM- 5 mOhms 100AH 27 size SiO2-=< 6.8 mOhms (at 77F) Charging specs: AGM- 14.5-14.9 cycle use, 13.6-13.8 float use SiO2- 14.4-14.7, 13.5-13.8 Wiring is part of the internal resistance actually seen between load and battery and between batteries so that can double the battery's own.
BFL13 10/22/20 10:13pm Tech Issues
RE: AGM Batteries for Travel Trailer

I see the OP has been reading the ads! 5x faster ! :) So with your 55 amp converter doing 55 amps on your 200AH of Flooded batts now, how are you going to get that 55 amp converter to put out 275 amps by swapping over to 200AH of AGMs ???? Tee hee, gottaluv advertising
BFL13 10/22/20 06:02pm Tech Issues
RE: House and Engine Battery -Update 2-Surge? REGEN threat!

if you wanted to keep the ability to charge wit your alternator one of these would do it properly Victron Energy Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-Volt 18 amp 220-Watt DC-DC Charger If I have understand the manual for this charger correctly, all charging voltage are programable ! This is exactly what you want ! The SiO2 charging voltages are the same as ordinary batteries, so no worries. It is just the amps being too high I was concerned about with alternator charging. Turns out that is no problem with the 7-pin wiring limiting the amps.
BFL13 10/22/20 05:44pm Tech Issues
RE: SiO2 ? -UPDATE Tests.

Got it today and out of the box it is 12.93v, which on the graph is 95% SOC. Normally I would now recharge to full as a new battery off the shelf, but first--testing! :) MW on at 58amps but that rose during the test to 72 amps as voltage fell (called "inverter creep" where it tries to maintain the watts) Ran the MW off and on for several 5 and 10 minute sessions in a row until the inverter alarmed at loaded 11.1 volts. Trimetric AH down 37.4 AH. After 1/2 hour bounce back no load voltage 12.42v and after another 1/2 hour 12.45 so call that resting (not quite but close enough for testing) Chart says that is 60% SOC (so 40 down vs 37ish by Tri so add a bit for shelf life 95% reading at start and that comes out close enough to 100. So that means I can run the MW at 60-70 amps draw down to inverter alarm and that will be 60% SOC in my set-up for wiring and this single 100AH. That comes to 40AH at about 65 amps for about 37 minutes--an AH a minute roughly. Anyway, that is plenty for my scenarios. Recharging now to see how long it stays in Bulk compared with flooded and AGM batts. The question was raised --Why does it say to recharge immediately after each use on its label, when the blurb says you can leave it and it won't sulphate (although charging to full once a month is recommended) ? I asked the guy at the dealer's who knows this stuff (IMO ) and he said: "It's basically the standard recommendation for all batteries. If you baby them they last longer. So it's better not to abuse them if you don't need to. They have been tested after sitting for months at low to zero charge, then still able recharge to full capacity, which will often kill standard batteries. The same with the temperature range; They can handle temps that destroy other batteries, but don't keep them in the freezer just because you can. It's like having a Jeep; you can drive it on paved roads like regular cars, but you can also take it into territory that would wreck a regular car. Paved roads are still less wear and tear. I hope that analogy makes sense." So next report is about the recharge profile. EDIT--recharging: So using the same Vector charger as in my ugly graph with flooded 27DC type batteries, and a 19% charging rate, the Vector stayed in constant amps until 76% SOC Flooded and 87.5% SOC with this SiO2 batt. Amps then taper. Not attempting to compare tapering times since with the Flooded it is very flat 90-100 but steeper for that last 10% with the SiO2. Certainly you get a "faster recharge" from 76% SOC on up because one is tapering and the other is still in Bulk constant amps for part of that range. At the 19% charging rate used for this test, it is the same times up till 76% -can't be faster, the charger can't do faster, but eg, with the Flooded, the 80-90 part takes an hour of tapering, while the SiO2 takes about 1/2 that time then tapers. Anyway, no figures for other charging rates- but expect the usual thing where a lower rate will take longer over-all and those lower amps won't taper till a higher SOC. Can't do more than 25% rate by spec anyway. The Vector smart charger got the battery to 14.7v and was doing about 5 amps when it decided that was full enough! Still down 4.2AH on the Tri. So as we have always known, that type of charger stops too soon and you need another way to get to 100%. (I have switched to a maintenance charger to finish off charging it tonight in slow time.) Then I can worry about that again in a month or so --no fussing with this battery about leaving it under-charged for long times. That means I can just let the Vector run till it quits and call it good enough. That's about it. I can't think of any other tests to try out with this battery, but if anybody has a request, I will have the Tri in the camper for a couple more days before returning it to the MH. I forgot to say that I did not correct for charging efficiency AH count on recharge that the Trimetric uses for heat loss. I don't know what the diff is in heat loss for the SiO2 vs the flooded 27Dc type. IMO this would not be enough of a factor to skew the results of this test.
BFL13 10/22/20 03:20pm Tech Issues
RE: Ford F150 battery drain when towing Travel Trailer

Brake controller acting funny? Pulling amps but not braking the TT so you'd notice? (WAG)
BFL13 10/20/20 04:50pm Tech Issues
RE: House and Engine Battery -Update 2-Surge? REGEN threat!

No need for the DC-DC since the OEM alternator voltages and amps are ok with the SiO2. It has the same charging specs as ordinary batteries so no special charger required. I did change my camper 55 amp converter to a 20 amp charger so not to go over the 25 amp/100AH charging rate they do want you stay under. If I got two 100AH SiO2s in parallel, then the 55 amp converter would be ok. Except I would be broke! One of those is expensive enough. Oh well. PT says he is saving up to buy six of them! That's a lot of piano tuning. Or he gets paid by the hour and is slow :) I will not need alternator charging in my scenarios except for an emergency, and apparently doing that will not hurt anything. It is leaving the fancy batt in parallel with the engine batt with no float voltage, that has "issues" AFAIK, so that's easy- just won't do that.
BFL13 10/20/20 04:30pm Tech Issues
RE: House and Engine Battery -Update 2-Surge? REGEN threat!

More reading up on the possible threat and it seems mostly for when they are in parallel but not being floated. time2roll has always said in that case the float voltage "floats all boats". The things that happen while being charged can matter, but from the incomplete info I have, are not damaging to the batts as such. Maybe more info on that will appear... There will be longer times when the unit is parked and not plugged in with little or no solar, so I am just going to pull Stud 1, leave the 7-pin connected, and keep it that way. If the truck battery needs to be floated, I will do that with a separate maintenance charger I have. That is easiest for my situation. If ever needing an emergency recharge for the House batt, I can put Stud 1 Pin 4 fuse back in or use the inverter method. Either way has the amps under the 25 amp charging limit for my particular House batt . I don't know what Li guys do, but that's my plan. Ed-Gee's post is very interesting on his situation too.
BFL13 10/20/20 11:14am Tech Issues
RE: House and Engine Battery -Update 2-Surge? REGEN threat!

Mex, do you mean they can be charged together in parallel no problem, but should not be floated together in parallel or what? I don't know if there is a threat from eddies and all that or not. Or is it only between flooded batts in parallel and it would not happen at all between an Li and a flooded or an Si and a flooded. Or what? Thanks.
BFL13 10/19/20 10:44pm Tech Issues
RE: House and Engine Battery -Update 2-Surge? REGEN threat!

Still no effect while charging. In use they are separated. No issues. No, they would be in parallel while charging or floating driving or parked. (It is a Chev with Pin 4 always live unless you pull the fuse for that or yank the 7-pin connection out) There is something about weird things that can happen inside and between dissimilar batteries in parallel that might be more so when the batteries are very different as with Li or Si and "ordinary" flooded or AGM types. I wonder what the Li guys are doing if anything?
BFL13 10/19/20 09:19pm Tech Issues
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