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RE: The camping industry is going to be hit hard

"China locked down their country hard for approx. 2-3 months. How this lockdown affected their economy remains to be seen. But, one thing's for sure, China's Covid-19 stats are in stark contrast to those in the US. The Covid-19 death rate in the US (as of yesterday) is approx. 30 times higher per capita than China. China is clearly on the downside of their "curve", while the US is still trying to flatten it. Our death rate will continue to get even worse, while China's (barring further outbreaks) will only get better. Very sobering contrast." You REALLY believe aNYTHING Communist China is claiming??????? MSNBC, right???No, I don't. However, there's enough evidence from reputable 3rd party sources in China (not MSNBC) to make me believe these numbers are relatively accurate. If you have any hard evidence to the contrary, please feel free to substantiate. Bottom line, social distancing and sheltering-in place saves lives. Whether these lives saved are worth the economic impact to our country is certainly open to debate. Got to ask: How do you place a specific dollar value on a human life?The fact is there will no time when it will be certain no people will die of COVID19. A virus with a proven vaccine in use of decades killed 140,000 in 2018. That virus was measles. Despite being the first virus with a vaccine, there are still scattered cases of wild polio in the world. People still die from AIDS, and it has been the subject of intensive research for a generation. The only virus that has been considered eradicated out of existence is Smallpox. We are going to have to live with COVID19 and probably several mutated variations for many years to come. A world where economies are functioning well will be better suited to meet the challenges of future outbreaks than a world in depression where providing the basic essentials of life such as food and shelter takes all of the available resources. It isn't as simple as shelter in place for X number of days and everything will be hunky dory.
westernrvparkowner 04/13/20 03:06pm General RVing Issues
RE: The camping industry is going to be hit hard

Where the HE!! are you getting your news? Probably NBC. I accidentally caught the Evening News and the selective editing, lies and misinformation were astounding. No wonder some people 'think' the way they do. :R BTW, I'm taking the precautions very seriously but I can also see the way this pandemic is being used by the power-grabbers in our midst. "Never let a crisis go to waste":M You must mean all those GOP Senators buying stock when they were told of the pandemic in China?Both Republican and Democrats have been accused of SELLING stock, but why bother with details. There is a reason that all those congressional candidates (both parties) spend millions of dollars to win a job that pay $174,000 a year.
westernrvparkowner 04/12/20 09:10pm General RVing Issues
RE: The camping industry is going to be hit hard

Not sure how this will ever end. Politicians everywhere are trying to one up each other by showing how willing they are to impose restrictions in the interest of "saving lives". Hours after a County health official says shelter in place till May 15th, the neighboring county official is going to step up and tell their county to shelter until May 30th, proudly proclaiming they care more about their residents than the rubes in that other county. Sure hope one of them doesn't decide that the virus can spread on the soles of shoes. If they do, it will be followed by a law that says that any time you venture outside you need to hop around on one foot, thus cutting the risk in half.
westernrvparkowner 04/12/20 08:31pm General RVing Issues
RE: Texans: are you gonna take this

Ha Ha, I love Texas and I am from Iowa, this was just a joke, but it was funny!Why is Iowa a state? So Nebraskans can have someone to make fun of.
westernrvparkowner 04/12/20 01:38pm General RVing Issues
RE: Forest Service closes all camp grounds in OR - Sept. 30th

Why stop at lowering the risk and why only for COVID? They could close them all permanently and eliminate any risk of anyone ever getting infected with anything.
westernrvparkowner 04/12/20 12:50pm RV Parks, Campgrounds and Attractions
RE: And Texas Caves In

If it was your parent, child or other relative that died you may or may not feel different about protecting those near you. A large percentage of deaths are below the age of 40. Death rate would have been much higher if the curve had not been elongated allowing everyone access to health care.False information is rampant. A little research will show that deaths from COVID-19 are not concentrated in those under the age of 40. It is actually the exact opposite, deaths are concentrated in those over 65. Children especially are not dying due to COVID. According to the CDC, if you use February 1 as the start date 4038 children aged 14 and under have died in the US. Of that group, only two of those deaths are attributed to COVID. For comparison's sake, 69 of those deaths were from influenza. The big concern with children is not that they will become seriously ill from COVID, rather it is that they can become asymptomatic carriers and infect the more vulnerable older population.
westernrvparkowner 04/12/20 09:15am General RVing Issues
RE: And Texas Caves In

Does the medical system even matter? If you listen to the experts and actually study the statistics it is possible to conclude the medical system is almost inconsequential. While we hear of treatments such as Chloroquine and Remdesivir much of the media and some of the "experts" say that the evidence of success is anecdotal at best. So apparently we are supposed to cross those off list as actual treatments. Over 80% of the patients who are put on respirators never recover, (and it is logical to assume at least some of those who survive would have survived anyway) so that isn't very helpful either. Is the medical system's current function in this pandemic to provide a bit of palliative care?
westernrvparkowner 04/11/20 02:24pm General RVing Issues
RE: Problems with past RV Parks you've stayed at?

Sold my park. From the other side, our troubles WERE , in no order, with late arrivals that cant park, quieting the party, people driving on grass, bringing unapproved firewood, noise ( voices, music, trucks) during quiet hours, forgetting time changes, so ringing officebell an hour early or late, babies without swim diapers and dogs in pool. Damage, abuse of free provided sports equipment, those who do not read the info for wifi log in, or CATV hookup, even when we bring a test tv set or ipad to their site and show them the wifi is good, CATV is good, so sorry, it must be something with your equipment. Cutting weiner sticks from camp trees and shrubs, trash in firerings, barking dogs left in the rig, theft of backflow preventers( pity that guy that thinks he scooped a regulator) Trash in recycling bins, sewage spills, leaking hoses, both types, A/C on with windows open, dog poop, even poor reviews about wildlife poo along hiking trails, , tree sap, pine cones falling on the roof, lawsuits and medical claims ( never won by them) for injury or illness for their own actions or tripping over a natural hazard while drunk. My point is so many faults are attributed to the private camps that are beyond their control, yet are expected by many to maintain social order as it exists around their home. Some People go camping to get out of that regimen. My pity is for those who little time off work have to schedule late arrival, early departure, with no time between to just hang out. People behave better in state and fed parks because the hosts wear official uniforms and have authority to enforce. Few private camp owners last more than 5 years. The burnout from long hours, a demanding public, staffing, regulations, takes away all the romantic vision. Only someone who approaches this industry as a business with a thick skin lasts. Oh Yeah, cut that tree limb under 14' We lasted 19years.Looks like you picked a great time to sell. Hope you didn't owner finance the sale because it sure looks like this is going to be the leanest year ever, assuming parks are even allowed to open. The businesses in the Black Hills are going to suffer greatly if Mount Rushmore is closed and Sturgis is cut back or cancelled. You left out my greatest pet peeve: people who think park owners are somehow omnipotent. Contrary to popular belief, we cannot change the weather, suddenly make a cell phone carrier provide service to the area, bring an Oceanfront Beach to Montana or make the fish bite. We cannot turn a Grizzly Bear into Yogi Bear and make them talk and play the banjo. We don't write the rules for the National Parks and can't waive things like prohibitions on ATVs or give you a pass to take your dogs on the trails. Walmart is not going to build a store next door because you want one close by. And no, we actually don't set the prices at the local market or the local restaurants. We only have control over our little piece of ground, not the entire state.
westernrvparkowner 04/11/20 09:48am Family Camping
RE: And Texas Caves In

Extreme social distancing may not be as effective as advertised. Take a look at two states that took different approaches, California and Texas. California was one of the first states to take aggressive social distancing measures. Texas was one of the last, and to date has taken a more lax approach to both rules and enforcement. Both states are among the most populous, have large, international cities and have long stretches of an international border as well as a major maritime industry leading to much transient international travel. California has a population of nearly 40 million and Texas about 30 million. To date California has 20,191 confirmed cases and Texas has 11,329. That means one out of every 1981 Californians were infected, yet only one out of every 2648 Texans suffered the same fate despite not having statewide stay at home orders. Perhaps the right approach to reopening the country is to trust the citizens to do the right thing. If people behave responsibly, take rational steps to protect themselves if they are not sick and isolate themselves if they do become infected much of the country can begin to return to a resemblance of normal very soon. I think most people have a good idea of what they should do. I doubt many people are going to start flocking to concerts, jamming the cruise lines, filling airplanes and immediately restart shaking hands and hugging strangers because restrictions are lifted. While targeted quarantines may be needed for a while, vast areas of the country can start recovering very soon if we put a bit of trust in the people. I agree with this. The data I posted earlier from Oregon showed a flattening and declining hospitalization curve that happened before the stay at home order was given. It was after people starting being proactive on their own once the word got out. We are suffering from a large case of “do somethingitis” that officials often come down with. I know some will respond with, “but stupid people won’t act responsibly so we have to make them.” As is true with any issue, some will act foolishly but fortunately reducing virus spread doesn’t require 100% participation. I disagree because first case in California was far earlier than in Texas.California had 5 confirmed cases (first was February 28) not including the Diamond Princess Cruise passengers when Texas reported it's first non Diamond Princess case on March 5. I wouldn't consider that a huge head start.
westernrvparkowner 04/10/20 02:20pm General RVing Issues
RE: Problems with past RV Parks you've stayed at?

I stayed at a nice RV park last week and it was a very nice park. But what irked me greatly was their rules had a disparagement clause saying the campers could not say anything negative about the park. I don't think they could sue you for saying something negative, if it's true, but all the same I would rather stay somewhere else that does not have such an extreme rule. Negative and false = bad. Negative and true - we still have freedom of speech.I would assume something similar exists at almost all RV parks and businesses in general. "If you don't like it here, please leave." is our policy. And should a guest push the issue too far, we will move on from politely requesting to firmly insisting they leave.
westernrvparkowner 04/10/20 02:02pm Family Camping
RE: And Texas Caves In

Still waiting on Dallas Steve's evidence of the economy being ruined for his grand kids as a result of COVID actions. I asked before and never saw anything. Maybe I missed it.Don't know about Dallas Steve's grandkids, but Oxfam International, a major charity estimates that COVID-19 may force 500 million people into poverty. There is a major concern that school closures are having a detrimental effect on the health of the very poor since school meal programs have been interrupted. Today there are several stories of how some food banks are being over-run by needy families. The economic impact is much greater than a few percentage points of decline in the stock market. Real people will suffer.
westernrvparkowner 04/10/20 10:18am General RVing Issues
RE: And Texas Caves In

I've been wondering for several pages when the shut it down crowd thinks we should return to some sort of normalcy? No opinions on that? It seems there are limited choices. First continue the shut downs indefinitely. The end would come only with an effective treatment or immunization. Neither seems to be coming any time in the near future. Next would be to gradually lift the restrictions allowing the virus to spread but at a slower rate. That would mean the virus would eventually spread to hit at least half the population with a million or so deaths and tens of millions needing ventilators and intensive care. The economic costs of that level of care would be staggering to the economy. Take your pick. Thank you for stepping up with your view, you are the pioneer of your side of the debate. :) Hopefully some of the other folks are willing to also share their ideas?Extreme social distancing may not be as effective as advertised. Take a look at two states that took different approaches, California and Texas. California was one of the first states to take aggressive social distancing measures. Texas was one of the last, and to date has taken a more lax approach to both rules and enforcement. Both states are among the most populous, have large, international cities and have long stretches of an international border as well as a major maritime industry leading to much transient international travel. California has a population of nearly 40 million and Texas about 30 million. To date California has 20,191 confirmed cases and Texas has 11,329. That means one out of every 1981 Californians were infected, yet only one out of every 2648 Texans suffered the same fate despite not having statewide stay at home orders. Perhaps the right approach to reopening the country is to trust the citizens to do the right thing. If people behave responsibly, take rational steps to protect themselves if they are not sick and isolate themselves if they do become infected much of the country can begin to return to a resemblance of normal very soon. I think most people have a good idea of what they should do. I doubt many people are going to start flocking to concerts, jamming the cruise lines, filling airplanes and immediately restart shaking hands and hugging strangers because restrictions are lifted. While targeted quarantines may be needed for a while, vast areas of the country can start recovering very soon if we put a bit of trust in the people.
westernrvparkowner 04/10/20 10:05am General RVing Issues
RE: And Texas Caves In

...There is only a debate if you think 10's of millions will need a ventilator. There are no current reliable estimates to support that theory. The data here in NY State is pretty clear. Sure no one knows how many have been infected but the percentage of the NY population is low and tens of thousands have needed intensive care. Italy and Spain also show what happens without enough access to intensive care and ventilators. The death rate goes way up. In NY we also know what happens when a substantial portion of hospital beds are being taken up by Covid patients. Costs of care go way, way up and resources are not available to handle other care.Some of the latest research is indicating that ventilators may actually be having a negative effect on the death rate. Ventilators create positive pressure within the lungs and may be causing further damage to the lungs that are already weakened by the patient's immune response to the COVID virus. Governor Cuomo of New York recently said that less than 20% of patients who go on respirators successfully recover. Some research has indicated that severe COVID patients respond better to standard oxygen treatments while lying in face down instead of being placed on a ventilator.
westernrvparkowner 04/10/20 09:43am General RVing Issues
RE: Texans: are you gonna take this

Why did the chicken cross the road? To prove to the armadillo it could be done.
westernrvparkowner 04/09/20 04:40pm General RVing Issues
RE: And Texas Caves In

Remind me again which hospitals have been overwhelmed? Well - here's one... "Detroit hospital workers say people are dying in the ER hallways before help can arrive"Prior to the pandemic Detroit was considered to be one of the unhealthiest US cities ranking 165 out of 174 metro areas by Wallethub.com. Even worse, it's healthcare system ranked 170th out of 174. Combine that with it's dual demographic issues of poverty (3 times the national average) and the highest percentage of black population (blacks are proportionally at higher risk of major complications from COVID19) of any major city and you have a perfect storm for problems. Those problems do not translate to the rest of the country. Using Detroit as an evidence of a nationwide problem is not accurate.
westernrvparkowner 04/09/20 10:14am General RVing Issues
RE: And Texas Caves In

... If a little suffering keeps a few more people alive so be it. There are much worse tragedies than high unemployment and the stock market crash. Guess what they can take your money but they can't eat you! Be glad you have your health! Be glad your alive!Nothing else really matters. Including , RV'S, money, Jobs etc. Your health and your families health are top priority. Everything else is just stuff that is ultimately disposable.Wow how profound! I just have one question. Tens of thousands of people die every year from seasonal flu, why don't we shut this country down every year for 3 months? After all, if a little suffering keeps a few more people alive it's worth it right? The fact that you want to compare covid deaths to those created by the seasonal flu let me know that you don't fully understand what's happening and why the shut down has been put in place. Just for reference thousands don't die overnight from the fluIt is estimated that globally between 250,000 and 500,000 people die each year from the flu. So unless you are implying that most flu victims die during the day, thousands of people do die overnight from the flu. We will never know what would have happened had the actions taken not occurred. And only time will tell if there is any way to return to a resemblance of normalcy. But I think it is safe to say we cannot respond to every potential health threat in a similar manner going forward. Hopefully there will be great lessons learned and applied in the future from both sides.
westernrvparkowner 04/09/20 08:40am General RVing Issues
RE: Cruel Summer

If people are cancelling reservations even into the summer, and things open up, do you think those cancelled reservations will be gobbled up and the parks will be just as hard to get into? Or will the parks still be barren as people error on the side of caution?It is very likely the parks and the surrounding attractions will be closed out of caution. The big concern is going to be the medical facilities surrounding those attractions since most of them are very small and rural. As an example, the towns within a 50 mile radius of Yellowstone have a population of around 60,000. Yellowstone had 4 million visitors in 2019. Even if a small fraction of those visitors became sick, the local hospitals would be overwhelmed. And then there is the logistical problems of isolating those who do not need hospitalization. Hotel rooms cannot house people for 14 days beyond their reservations and it is very likely that air travel will involve a virus test, or temperature check at a minimum, prior to boarding so just going home will not be an option. I really don't see how rural vacation areas can open and believe me, I have a very vested interest in them opening.
westernrvparkowner 04/06/20 03:15pm RV Parks, Campgrounds and Attractions
RE: How come?

Remember, it only takes one person to infect 4,000 in a week. Show the data. Curious. It is simple math Crow: -One infected person contacts 10 people who contract it. -those 10 people each give it to 10 people = 100 -those 100 people each give it to 10 people = 1000 -those 1000 people each give it to 10 people = 10,000 that is not even a week and that is what has happened in NY GuyFortunately your rate of infection spread is pure fantasy. At your rate of infection everyone on the planet, some nine billion people, would have been infected in less than three weeks from the time of the very first case in China. You theorize that cases expand weekly by a factor of 10,000. So your 10,000 cases at the end of week one will have grown to 100 million at the end of week two. In the third week the planet is 100% infected before Wednesday. As you correctly pointed out, it is simple math.
westernrvparkowner 04/06/20 09:55am General RVing Issues
RE: Should/will Glacier, Teton and Yellowstone open?

Tough spot to be in for everyone. My sister who lived in Boston for many years is snow birding in Florida right now. She has,,had, a friend from Boston that has died from this thing. He was healthy and in his late 50's. He contacted it at some sort of international convention held in Boston that he went to as part of his business. Hopefully, this all blows over by the 4th of July and then everyone can argue about how it really wasn't all that bad. But, if nothing is done and then people then die in large numbers people will still argue over how nothing was done. This is the first time in my 56 years that I feel bad for the politicians. Dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. There are 11800 people in my county. I figure best case 70 of them die from this. (Not so bad really). That is On Top Of what have would have died before from other things. Most likely 120 of them will die. That is the population of my town. Seems like a larger number when you put it like that. I would not count on any large parks to open before July. Most of them will be shut all year. Minneapolis already announced that all beaches and pools are shut for the whole summer.I think your calculations are off. In the hardest hit state, New York, there is approximately 120,000 confirmed cases with about 4100 deaths. New York state has a population of nearly 20 million, so the infection rate is less than 1% and the death rate among the confirmed infected is less than 4%. Even applying double those percentages of the most infected state to your county of 11800 Than would give you about 236 people infected out of which 9 would die. And since fatal cases are concentrated in the elderly with underlying health conditions at least a couple of those deaths would come out of the 70 who normally die each year. That makes your annual death toll in the county about 77 instead of 70. Significant to the families of the extra 7 deaths, but not an apocalyptic depopulating event.
westernrvparkowner 04/05/20 11:25am General RVing Issues
RE: Should/will Glacier, Teton and Yellowstone open?

I say skip the season and leave the national parks closed. This is non essential IMO. If you are bored this Summer it would be a good time to volunteer your assistance as needed in your local community.Easy to say, no very easy to do. My losses will be in the multiple hundreds of thousands. If you add in the probable loss of equity due to the fact that future buyers must take into account it is possible to lose an entire year of business my true loss will likely be in the millions. Basically my life's work is hanging in the balance. Forgive me if the though of having a "free summer to volunteer" doesn't make everything rosy. It's not ones life's work that's in the balance, It's actual lives that are in the balance. There is a difference.And in the end there will be no actual proof that any lives were actually saved. There will only be competing statistical models based entirely on assumptions. There is no guarantee that a vaccine or treatment will ever be perfected. It is entirely possible that the steps being taken to "Flatten the curve" may prolong the time the virus actually circulates in the population perhaps allowing it to mutate into an even deadlier form. It may have been a better policy to maximize isolation of those most vulnerable to having life threatening complications and let the virus sweep thru the rest of the population creating a herd immunity, thus thwarting the virus. We will never know for sure if the steps taken saved lives or cost lives over the course of the virus. And if you really want to be a statistical nerd, it will be a statistical certainty that all the steps taken actually never saved a single life, since it is statistically certain every single one of us will die. To imply that extreme economic damage is without life threatening consequences is very short sighted. Poverty kills millions across the globe annually. Eventually a decision point of the economy over the virus will need to be reached. It is beyond foolish to believe that point can be set at a zero risk of additional deaths by COVID19.
westernrvparkowner 04/05/20 09:31am General RVing Issues
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