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Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 01/01/18 02:55am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

hommer638 wrote:

I had it in the back of my mind that I would need a better tow vehicle. I am planning a trip to the east coast and then a year later a trip to the west coast.I have been looking at the Ford F150 XTR with the 3.5 ecoboost, my son has one and it looks like a very capable and fuel efficient truck.


Yes, while the van would get the job done, somewhat begrudgingly, a half ton Eco boost or any of the V8s, or even the baby Eco boost will do it with comfort and power to spare.
Probably more importantly, the chassi of a full size pickup is designed to pull something like your trailer without even flinching. No wdh needed, no extra add ons. Gas n go.


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SoundGuy

S Ontario

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Posted: 01/01/18 04:45am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

theoldwizard1 wrote:

From some quick research I don't believe that trailer has electric brakes.


Of course it does ... here in Ontario as in many jurisdictions any trailer with a gross weight exceeding 3000 lbs must have brakes. With a GVWR of nearly 4000 lbs this Wolf Pup has to have brakes and they sure won't be surge brakes. [emoticon]

BenK

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Posted: 01/01/18 12:13pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

jerem0621 wrote:

snip...

With the WD, like I said, it did great. But, I think the WD hitch has loosened up the uni-body somehow. The doors don’t seem as tight and the interior body panels now rattle more than they use to before we towed with the WD hitch.


Good buddy, glad you posted this and am taking the opportunity to explain how or why a unibody isn't a good candidate for towing heavy with a WD Hitch system

A monocoque/unibody has a thicker gauge pan or platform with a body spot welded to it. Some of today's are bonded (glued) to the pan with 'some' fasteners and/or spot welds.

A ladder frame setup will have the WD Hitch load on the ladder frame and the body (monocoque/unibody) sitting on top if it via compliant doughnuts

Spot welds are typically NOT continuous seam welded, but staggered (pitch or centers spaced as specified by the engineering drawings)

The forces on a ladder frame are transferred to the frame via bolts holding the receiver to the frame rails. Some to the cross members (not a good way and why some TV's has a lower WD tongue rating).

Since not seam welded...spot welds focuses forces on a small area. That becomes a stress raiser if over loaded (over the design loading)

Stress fractures and then tearing to finally ripping apart. They why of squeaks, groans, etc. To mis-alignment, as the part no longer is to spec

Monocoque/unibody are tighter and stiffer than most any ladder frame...when new...as the compliant doughnuts allow more movement, even when new



Took a few minutes searching for examples



This one shows spot welds in 'shear' how it held, held, held...till the upper spot welds gave up. The top one ripped apart by tearing the a piece away. The second one tore and let go at the spot weld itself. The third one held, but the surrounding material developed stress fractures that was the parting line when the two above let go

[image]




This one shows spot welds in 'peel' and tore apart from the bend side to leave material on the other side of the spot weld. The first micro fractures were on the bend side and propagated around the spot weld and finally tore around the spot weld

[image]



This one is another spot weld failure in shear and IMHO, too close to the sheetmetal edge vs the forces it was 'trying' to hold against. The spot weld itself is pretty good and the material was either not thick enough or as stated above, too close to the edge

[image]


Just one more examples of spot weld failures and telling of the squeaks, groans, etc vehicles that have spot weld failures. The noise is from the two parts of a fracture touch each other while trying to hold it together

[image]



In some cases, a vehicle will 'dog track' and/or take more steering input if the looseness if severe enough to allow mis-aligment of suspension/steering components. Bottom line is that the integrity of the whole is compromised and my fear is during an emergency maneuver or accident...the monocoque/unibody might come apart...and the basis for my advice on this matter...follow your OEM's requirements (recommendations) and NOT tow above their rating and NOT use WD when they say 'not recommended'...

Folks gotta decide on their own risk management decisions and think too many have no clue on how a monocoque/unibody works/constructed and fails from over loads...


-Ben Picture of my rig
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Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
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blofgren

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Posted: 01/01/18 01:56pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

hommer638 wrote:

I had it in the back of my mind that I would need a better tow vehicle. I am planning a trip to the east coast and then a year later a trip to the west coast.I have been looking at the Ford F150 XTR with the 3.5 ecoboost, my son has one and it looks like a very capable and fuel efficient truck.


Great choice; the power they produce is amazing especially for such a small engine.

The biggest challenge then will be resisting the urge to go to a bigger trailer! [emoticon]


2013 Ram 3500 Megacab DRW Laramie 4x4, 6.7L Cummins, G56, 3.73, Maximum Steel, black lthr, RAM 20k sliding hitch, Retrax, Linex, and a bunch of options incl. cargo camera
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p220sigman

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Posted: 01/01/18 06:40pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I think you are making a wise choice to go for a more capable vehicle for that trailer. While minivans can make great tow vehicles, that trailer is simply more than they are designed to handle. I don't mind towing with our Sienna right at the max, but it is a PUP so low profile and we tow around Florida where it is almost all flat towing. Tough to beat the 16 mpg we get towing. However, I would not want to tow a full-height trailer with it.

jerem0621

Tennessee

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Posted: 01/01/18 06:57pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thanks for the pics and the explanation BenK. Very good detail. I'm book marking this for future use when folks talk about towing heavy with a WD hitch and a Unibody vehicle.

OP, great decision.

Thanks!

Jeremiah


“Well, here at last, dear friends, on the shores of the Sea comes the end of our fellowship in Middle-earth. Go in peace! I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil.”
~ J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King

rexlion

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Posted: 01/02/18 12:41pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Jeremiah's popup exceeded the van's hitch weight limit by a substantial amount, so the result is not surprising. Towing within the tug's specified limits, or a bit over the limit with accompanying hardware (i.e., a custom receiver to spread the load over more of the unibody), should yield a different result.

Vans are better at maneuvering than more top-heavy full size pickups and trucks. They have a pretty long wheelbase, good for stable towing. With brakes on the trailer, they stop fine, too. They can do a great job of towing. They won't, however, tow nearly as much as a larger vehicle.

I like some of what Can-Am does, but I don't know exactly how far they push the envelope. If they were to say that a minivan can be set up to tow a 28', 5000 lb TT with 700 lbs of tongue weight, I'd say no thanks (I don't know if they would do this, it's just a for-instance).


Mike G.
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BenK

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Posted: 01/02/18 01:07pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Instead of answering the PM's individually...here are the answers and pictures to help understand what am saying

Lots of different ones in hopes to get the visualization of the various ways they put together vehicles

A monocoque/unibody will have a WD Hitch system bolted to the 'sheetmetal' or 'pan' portion and it will then transfer the WD forces from that receiver to the pan sheetmetal...which then transfers those forces to the other sheetmetal panels via spot welds. Some will have glued interfaces (bonded), with some additional fasteners.

At those joints will be the stress raisers and of which the issue with WD on monocoque/unibody's ability to transfer and last over time.


A platform is just that, a pre-designed pan or in today's design systems...a whole basis to bolt/weld/glue/etc the body panels to make a vehicle.

the platform can be the same for a 'car' to a 'CUV' to a 'mini van', etc


These are 'pan' platform

VW like the one used to build my Dune Buggy. Notice the holes along the perimeter and are the holes for the bolts to hold the body to this pan
[image]

[image]


[image]

and this one shows the body that is already mounted onto the pan next to it
[image]



This is a current type platform and is not like the older 'pan' platforms. There is still a pan, but the body is now part of the platform. If this platform was used for, say a mini van, the body would look very different, but the 'pan' area would be the same with whatever the designers spec'd out to increase the strength/stiffness/etc

[image]


This is a 'CUV' with no ladder frame, but a unibody
[image]



These ladder frames and will have a monocoque/unibody mounted on top of it

This is a ladder frame from a truck
[image]

This is a ladder frame and think for a truck
[image]

This is ladder frame is for a 'car', not truck
[image]


This is a split image tied together (left and right) showing the difference types of cross members, and stuff mounted
[image]


This is a ladder frame for a 'car'
[image]

jerem0621

Tennessee

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Posted: 01/02/18 01:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rexlion wrote:

Jeremiah's popup exceeded the van's hitch weight limit by a substantial amount, so the result is not surprising. Towing within the tug's specified limits, or a bit over the limit with accompanying hardware (i.e., a custom receiver to spread the load over more of the unibody), should yield a different result.

Vans are better at maneuvering than more top-heavy full size pickups and trucks. They have a pretty long wheelbase, good for stable towing. With brakes on the trailer, they stop fine, too. They can do a great job of towing. They won't, however, tow nearly as much as a larger vehicle.

I like some of what Can-Am does, but I don't know exactly how far they push the envelope. If they were to say that a minivan can be set up to tow a 28', 5000 lb TT with 700 lbs of tongue weight, I'd say no thanks (I don't know if they would do this, it's just a for-instance).


You are absolutely right. Thing is, this PUP had a dry weight in the 2,700 on range and topped out about 3,300 lbs. It was a reasonable PUP and not all that uncommon. Thing is, I believe that this heavy tongue weight happens a lot on single axle trailers. And can be a challenge to know if your trailer will be in the weight range.

Just be a warning to all minivan tow'ers. weigh the tongue weight before you buy. Especially if the trailers design limits you on how you can manage the tongue weight.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

* This post was edited 01/02/18 03:41pm by jerem0621 *

dodge guy

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Posted: 01/03/18 05:44am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

This “sky is falling thread” has got to be the worst I’ve read on here! The pics you posted would happen if you were towing something extremely heavy! I’m talking heavy!!!! Or from an accident that ripped the hitch off. Bottom line is for what most people would think intend to pull with a unibody car/van you will never see this type of failure.

I towed with my Full size Dodge conv. van that had a unibody chassis and it never failed. I’ve seen minivans towing large PuPs or small TT for years with no failures.


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