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steveh27

Grosse Pointe Woods, MI

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Posted: 10/12/18 05:51am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Ethanol will absorb some water, I think less than 1%, so it can remove some water from the tank vs regular gas. But, once it surpasses that small % it will then permanently phase separate. The alcohol will come out of the gas & merge with water as a separate layer on the bottom of the tank. It will never go away and must be drained. The top layer of remaining gas will lose around 3 octane, ie 87 octane will become 84 octane.

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp

pnichols

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Posted: 10/12/18 06:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

steveh27 wrote:

Ethanol will absorb some water, I think less than 1%, so it can remove some water from the tank vs regular gas. But, once it surpasses that small % it will then permanently phase separate. The alcohol will come out of the gas & merge with water as a separate layer on the bottom of the tank. It will never go away and must be drained. The top layer of remaining gas will lose around 3 octane, ie 87 octane will become 84 octane.

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp


I probably find it hard to believe that the motion at the rear of a motorhome or tow vehicle when going down the road won't prevent any layer on the bottom of the tank from staying unmixed in with the liquid above.

Hopefully, when underway the engine will be forced to somehow eventully have burned/boiled-away everything in the tank regardless of composition. But good luck with the gas mileage while doing this.


Phil, 2005 E450 Itasca 324V Spirit

MEXICOWANDERER

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Posted: 10/12/18 09:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

This is exactly the junior grade assumptions I hoped for some of you to dispel in front of your very own eyeballs. It is so easy to do and believe it or not seeing with your own eyes is the best antihorsecrapper around.

A glass of gasoline, a glass of water and a container of pure alcohol. HEET is 100% alcohol and not 70% drugstore alcohol.

10% gasohol can it hold any and I mean ANY additional water?
How much? Until water passes directly to a glob at the bottom of the glass. Percentages would be a nice way to present this.

In a six oz glass adding water to make a 1" glob at the bottom, how much HEET does it take to absorb it? You have to agitate the mixture.

Or is the discussion going to remain a bin of roadapples?

valhalla360

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Posted: 10/13/18 06:08am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

This is exactly the junior grade assumptions I hoped for some of you to dispel in front of your very own eyeballs. It is so easy to do and believe it or not seeing with your own eyes is the best antihorsecrapper around.

A glass of gasoline, a glass of water and a container of pure alcohol. HEET is 100% alcohol and not 70% drugstore alcohol.

10% gasohol can it hold any and I mean ANY additional water?
How much? Until water passes directly to a glob at the bottom of the glass. Percentages would be a nice way to present this.

In a six oz glass adding water to make a 1" glob at the bottom, how much HEET does it take to absorb it? You have to agitate the mixture.

Or is the discussion going to remain a bin of roadapples?


I'm still confused...are you just talking about doing a science experiment or are you suggesting a useful function.


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MEXICOWANDERER

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Posted: 10/13/18 11:09am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Yes you can No you can't arguments are best resolved by example. There are folks on this thread who wish to use alcohol free gasoline in their small engines. The experiment part removes all doubt.

MEXICOWANDERER

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Posted: 10/13/18 11:24am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

There are a few folks who "enjoy" fogging reality. They bring their own machine. I spent my life de-fogging myths about lead-acid batteries using my disciplines. I guess this carries over to other facets of life.

There are lots of printed novels that provide plenty of fog. But misinformation that damages is not entertainment. But facts may upset the "foggers". They especially do not like home demonstrations. Like garlic to a vampire?

Chum lee

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Posted: 10/13/18 12:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

steveh27 wrote:

Ethanol will absorb some water, I think less than 1%, so it can remove some water from the tank vs regular gas. But, once it surpasses that small % it will then permanently phase separate. The alcohol will come out of the gas & merge with water as a separate layer on the bottom of the tank. It will never go away and must be drained.


So you are saying that the fuel pickup (at the bottom of the fuel tank in most systems) will refuse to pump this phase separated (lets say 95% ethanol/5% water) mixture through the fuel system? That has not been my experience. Ever heard of water injection?

A modern computer controlled fuel injected gas engine, if it can get started on the above referenced mix, will pump it through and burn it. It may run like XXXX until it's warmed up and purged, but it will run. I wouldn't leave it in the system for long because of the corrosion/gum potential.

On the other hand, if you get a real slug of water in the fuel tank, well, not much can deal with that other than a drain plug.

Chum lee

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Posted: 10/13/18 12:44pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

How did this evolve into this abstract?

It has everything to do with extracting alcohol from petroleum distillate and zero to do with pumping water. Down here I do not give a ratzass about alcohol because it does not exist.

The exercise is for folks wishing to remove alcohol from gasohol. The extraction method uses purposefully added water then gravity draining the extraction water.

The folks wish to do it. I wish to extract water from fuel. A while different ball game for different reason using a different method and no alcohol.

This discussion has nothing to do with how I do things for a totally different reason.

steveh27

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Posted: 10/14/18 06:22am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Chum lee wrote:

steveh27 wrote:

Ethanol will absorb some water, I think less than 1%, so it can remove some water from the tank vs regular gas. But, once it surpasses that small % it will then permanently phase separate. The alcohol will come out of the gas & merge with water as a separate layer on the bottom of the tank. It will never go away and must be drained.


So you are saying that the fuel pickup (at the bottom of the fuel tank in most systems) will refuse to pump this phase separated (lets say 95% ethanol/5% water) mixture through the fuel system? That has not been my experience. Ever heard of water injection?

A modern computer controlled fuel injected gas engine, if it can get started on the above referenced mix, will pump it through and burn it. It may run like XXXX until it's warmed up and purged, but it will run. I wouldn't leave it in the system for long because of the corrosion/gum potential.

On the other hand, if you get a real slug of water in the fuel tank, well, not much can deal with that other than a drain plug.

Chum lee


Did you read this thread?
https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp

Chum lee

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Posted: 10/15/18 01:37pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

steveh27 wrote:

Chum lee wrote:

steveh27 wrote:

Ethanol will absorb some water, I think less than 1%, so it can remove some water from the tank vs regular gas. But, once it surpasses that small % it will then permanently phase separate. The alcohol will come out of the gas & merge with water as a separate layer on the bottom of the tank. It will never go away and must be drained.


So you are saying that the fuel pickup (at the bottom of the fuel tank in most systems) will refuse to pump this phase separated (lets say 95% ethanol/5% water) mixture through the fuel system? That has not been my experience. Ever heard of water injection?

A modern computer controlled fuel injected gas engine, if it can get started on the above referenced mix, will pump it through and burn it. It may run like XXXX until it's warmed up and purged, but it will run. I wouldn't leave it in the system for long because of the corrosion/gum potential.

On the other hand, if you get a real slug of water in the fuel tank, well, not much can deal with that other than a drain plug.

Chum lee


Did you read this thread?
https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp


Yes, thank you, I did read the thread. I do agree with the engineers from Mercury Marine. I have met several of them and they are very bright competent people. That's why their products are as good as they are. Ya see, it's like this. As engineers, we all had to take the same prerequisite classes in years 1, 2, and 3 of college. Those include chemistry, physics, calculus, statistics, thermodynamics, statics, dynamics, strength of materials, stress lab, etc. That's why we think the same way. As such I don't feel the need to downgrade my education with a rehash written by some editor at Boatus magazine. Those journalism guys usually got a little squeamish when anything but the Kings English was written on the board in real science classrooms. Greek letters/symbols, . . . . well, forget it.

That said, the article may be perfect for you, and if it is, well great. Get your formal education out of a magazine. What degree programs do they offer?

Now, are you going to answer my question, or, just obfuscate, duck and cover, then defer to someone else. I'm speaking from my own personal work experience. How about you? Those are rhetorical questions so you need not reply to anyone other than yourself.

Chum lee

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