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CaLBaR

Ontario, Canada

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Posted: 02/22/20 05:22pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

CaLBaR wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

CaLBaR wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

With the Ford the brake lights only come while the wheel brakes are applied. The Ram is probably the same.


In my owners manual it states that the brake lights come on when the exhaust brake is active letting other drivers know that you are slowing down.

Rob


This must be new for 2019?

Does it say anything about actually applying the truck or trailer brakes when EB is active?


It only says that it will show the brake lights from what I read. I don't have the adaptive cruise control or the towing technology group on mine. From the brochure it does say that the adaptive cruise control will stop the truck so it will apply brakes. Makes sense to me that it would apply brakes with the towing technology groups bells and whistles but will need to look that up. Adaptive cruise control applying truck brakes and no trailer brakes would be dangerous in my estimation so the truck braking with trailer brakes makes total sense to me.

Rob


It applies trailer brakes as well.
As I previously posted I couldn't find any mention of the Auto exhaust brake applying wheel or trailer brakes in the Ford owner's manual yet it definitely does apply both but my suspicion is that it is only on the trucks with adaptive cruise.


From the Owners manual:

Towing A Trailer
ACC while towing a trailer is recommended only with an
Integrated Trailer Brake Controller. Aftermarket trailer
brake controllers will not activate the trailer brakes when
ACC is braking.

It applies the trailer brakes with the Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) so it if they used the adaptive cruise control going down the IKE the truck would have applied brakes to both truck and trailer to maintain speed if the exhaust brake was not enough.

Rob


2018 Grand Design Reflection 297RSTS
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2007 Rockwood 8298 SS (Traded in 2018)
2009 Toyota Tundra 4x4 Crew Max 5.7L (Traded in 2019)
HP Dual Cam Sway Control
Prodigy Brake Controller

4x4ord

Alberta

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Posted: 02/22/20 06:07pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

^^^ I believe it is only the trucks with ACC that have the capability to apply the wheel and trailer brakes. So it is part of the ACC system but it works regardless of having the cruise set.

Additionally, on the Ford, I can go into the system settings and turn ACC off. With ACC off my cruise works like the old style cruise but the brakes are still applied during CC operation going down hill and during EB operation on steep grades.


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Me Again

Sunbird(Wa)/snowbird(Az)

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Posted: 02/22/20 08:11pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

^^^ I believe it is only the trucks with ACC that have the capability to apply the wheel and trailer brakes. So it is part of the ACC system but it works regardless of having the cruise set.

Additionally, on the Ford, I can go into the system settings and turn ACC off. With ACC off my cruise works like the old style cruise but the brakes are still applied during CC operation going down hill and during EB operation on steep grades.


Sounds like the engineers that redid the RAM brake controller in 2015 moved over to Ford to screw up things there.


2015 RAM 3500 CC SB SRW Our Rig New 2017 Bighorn 3575el. Commuter trailer 2019 Laredo 225MK. Retired and enjoying it!


4x4ord

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Posted: 02/23/20 10:49am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

After thinking about the downhill test of these trucks here is what I have determined:
TFL guys said they had the Ford EB set to auto which is the best setting on the Ford for the downhill test they were doing. However there is more to it than picking a speed to hold the load at and measuring brake applications. For instance, The maximum reverse HP an engine can create occurs at maximum exhaust back pressure and engine redline. So 35 mph was an excellent speed for the Cummins to function at. It was running very close to the engine redline .... At the 4:00 and 6:00 minute marks in the video you can see the EB gauge all of a sudden display 236 reverse HP when the engine reaches redline. I believe the gauge is displaying while the computer applies the wheel brakes to prevent the engine from over revving. You can see that while the EB gauge displays the speed of the truck slows from 37 mph to 35 and then the wheel brakes are released.

If they had chosen 42 mph as the speed they wanted the truck to hold to the Ram would have had a disadvantage because the truck would have shifted to 3rd gear and the engine would have dropped to about 2400 rpm. At 2400 rpm the engine would have been producing considerably less reverse HP and as the truck accelerated Mr. Truck would have been applying the brakes prior to the engine reaching redline.

I didn't watch the Ford downhill portion again but I suspect they tried to go 35 mph with it as well. The Problem with that is 35 mph puts the Powerstroke in 3rd gear at 2800 rpm and in order to get maximum performance out of the Powerstroke EB they would have run the truck in 3rd gear at about 3400 rpm where it would have been travelling about 42 mph. Alternately they could have slowed the Ford to to get it to drop into 2nd gear and ran at 32 mph and 3500 rpm. Had the Ford been running at a higher rpm the computer would have been applying the brakes when the engine rpm reached redline.

I think the computer applies the wheel brakes at engine red line, so the Ram computer was performing multiple wheel brake applications where as the Mr Truck was applying the Ford wheel brakes prior to engine red line.


A tester really has to understand the workings of these trucks well to perform tests that demonstrate the full potential of each truck.

ib516

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Posted: 03/04/20 05:18am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I just saw the 2016 IKE pull for the Ram/Cummins pop up on my feed on Youtube. VIDEO

It was a dfferent load, but supposedly the same 30,000lbs total weight. It went up in 12:29 at 2.4 mpg.

This 2020 truck (rated at 400hp/1000tq) was 11:32 at 2.5 mpg.

What was that 2016 engine rated at? 385hp/865tq?

* This post was edited 03/04/20 09:54pm by ib516 *


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4x4ord

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Posted: 03/04/20 05:31am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The link you posted goes to the 2020 video.

Me Again

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Posted: 03/04/20 08:22am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

After thinking about the downhill test of these trucks here is what I have determined:
TFL guys said they had the Ford EB set to auto which is the best setting on the Ford for the downhill test they were doing. However there is more to it than picking a speed to hold the load at and measuring brake applications. For instance, The maximum reverse HP an engine can create occurs at maximum exhaust back pressure and engine redline. So 35 mph was an excellent speed for the Cummins to function at. It was running very close to the engine redline .... At the 4:00 and 6:00 minute marks in the video you can see the EB gauge all of a sudden display 236 reverse HP when the engine reaches redline. I believe the gauge is displaying while the computer applies the wheel brakes to prevent the engine from over revving. You can see that while the EB gauge displays the speed of the truck slows from 37 mph to 35 and then the wheel brakes are released.

If they had chosen 42 mph as the speed they wanted the truck to hold to the Ram would have had a disadvantage because the truck would have shifted to 3rd gear and the engine would have dropped to about 2400 rpm. At 2400 rpm the engine would have been producing considerably less reverse HP and as the truck accelerated Mr. Truck would have been applying the brakes prior to the engine reaching redline.

I didn't watch the Ford downhill portion again but I suspect they tried to go 35 mph with it as well. The Problem with that is 35 mph puts the Powerstroke in 3rd gear at 2800 rpm and in order to get maximum performance out of the Powerstroke EB they would have run the truck in 3rd gear at about 3400 rpm where it would have been travelling about 42 mph. Alternately they could have slowed the Ford to to get it to drop into 2nd gear and ran at 32 mph and 3500 rpm. Had the Ford been running at a higher rpm the computer would have been applying the brakes when the engine rpm reached redline.

I think the computer applies the wheel brakes at engine red line, so the Ram computer was performing multiple wheel brake applications where as the Mr Truck was applying the Ford wheel brakes prior to engine red line.


A tester really has to understand the workings of these trucks well to perform tests that demonstrate the full potential of each truck.


What does Mr Computer do if he overheats the brakes? Is he linked to an ejection function? Or does he know about all the run away ramps and is able to steer the truck to one? I wonder how the self driving semi's will handle this situation?

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 03/04/20 08:51am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"What was that 2016 engine rated at? 385hp/865tq?"

I assume so, my 15 is what you posted.


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ScottG

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Posted: 03/04/20 09:56am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

If you're utilizing ACC, you absolutely want it to apply the service brakes whether it's towing or not. That's the whole point of the system.


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4x4ord

Alberta

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Posted: 03/04/20 10:44am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Me Again wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

After thinking about the downhill test of these trucks here is what I have determined:
TFL guys said they had the Ford EB set to auto which is the best setting on the Ford for the downhill test they were doing. However there is more to it than picking a speed to hold the load at and measuring brake applications. For instance, The maximum reverse HP an engine can create occurs at maximum exhaust back pressure and engine redline. So 35 mph was an excellent speed for the Cummins to function at. It was running very close to the engine redline .... At the 4:00 and 6:00 minute marks in the video you can see the EB gauge all of a sudden display 236 reverse HP when the engine reaches redline. I believe the gauge is displaying while the computer applies the wheel brakes to prevent the engine from over revving. You can see that while the EB gauge displays the speed of the truck slows from 37 mph to 35 and then the wheel brakes are released.

If they had chosen 42 mph as the speed they wanted the truck to hold to the Ram would have had a disadvantage because the truck would have shifted to 3rd gear and the engine would have dropped to about 2400 rpm. At 2400 rpm the engine would have been producing considerably less reverse HP and as the truck accelerated Mr. Truck would have been applying the brakes prior to the engine reaching redline.

I didn't watch the Ford downhill portion again but I suspect they tried to go 35 mph with it as well. The Problem with that is 35 mph puts the Powerstroke in 3rd gear at 2800 rpm and in order to get maximum performance out of the Powerstroke EB they would have run the truck in 3rd gear at about 3400 rpm where it would have been travelling about 42 mph. Alternately they could have slowed the Ford to to get it to drop into 2nd gear and ran at 32 mph and 3500 rpm. Had the Ford been running at a higher rpm the computer would have been applying the brakes when the engine rpm reached redline.

I think the computer applies the wheel brakes at engine red line, so the Ram computer was performing multiple wheel brake applications where as the Mr Truck was applying the Ford wheel brakes prior to engine red line.


A tester really has to understand the workings of these trucks well to perform tests that demonstrate the full potential of each truck.


What does Mr Computer do if he overheats the brakes? Is he linked to an ejection function? Or does he know about all the run away ramps and is able to steer the truck to one? I wonder how the self driving semi's will handle this situation?


Mr. Computer does the same thing you do while going down the hill..... he uses the exhaust brake to its maximum potential and uses brake applications to slow the truck down periodically if the EB is not strong enough on its own. Unlike you, Mr. Computer keeps close tabs on brake pressure and time periods of brake applications so he is more aware of wheel brake temperatures than you are. If the wheel brakes are getting hot Mr. Computer will give you advanced warning so you can decide what should be done ..... apply the brakes to slow down to the next lower gear.

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