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2001400ex

Veradale, WA

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Posted: 02/24/20 08:16pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

mich800 wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Huntindog wrote:



I understand precisely what you are saying.

One question: Does Ford do SAE testing procedures with a SAE witness or not?

If not, then you can dis the SAE standards all you want. The Fact would be that Ford tests without any "benchmark" standards. IOW, They can make up their own test standards.


Using a witness does not matter in what I am talking about since none(zero,zip, zilch, nada) of the SAE tests is sustained power. It is only short burst power. So having a witness has nothing to do with it.


Also, the tests standards(witness or not) have the same correction factors. Ford or any manufacturer could use the best correction factors today without a witness and then use the very same best correction factors next year with a witness and it would still be legit. A witness does not mean squat in this because it is legal to do witness or not, and a witness would still sign off on using the best correction factors because it is within the test parameters. I don't think you understand how the process works because you would not be saying what you are saying if you did.
So why then did the Dmax with less HP smoke the higher rated Ford for so many years?

Fact is with out a SAE witness to the testing, they can do anything they want. And get pretty much any rating they want...

I remember a MASH episode where Col. Potter was having trouble passing his drivers test, and wanted a "make up test".
his instructor, Rizzo said"Great idea, you can make up your own test, I bet you get a 100%."





It is definitely not uncommon for a lower powered vehicle to win a race. Bench racing only gets you so far. You can plug in as many formulas, weights, gear ratios etc you want but it doesn't mean anything until that tire is pushing asphalt. There is a reason we still go through the exercise of actually lining up the cars as the starting line.


Horsepower at the crank is fairly meaningless. That's not necessarily true, but what matters is the horsepower to the ground. GM over the years has done a great job getting the horsepower to the ground. Toyota in their cars and crossovers do a great job as well. They are efficient. Drivetrain loss, or lack thereof, is as important as HP at the crank.

That being said, this test in these conditions, the Ford beat both the RAM and Chevy. Hopefully everyone ups their game.


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Cummins12V98

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Posted: 02/24/20 08:35pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

But But RAM was the safest of all with ZERO brake applications. Not really anything more important.

Also had had a good time climbing with nice cool temps and guess what the fan NEVER came on.


The Ram did good...


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blofgren

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Posted: 02/24/20 09:02pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lots of good discussion on this topic.

One thing that is strange, though; why was the Ford so noisy when it was running such a low RPM? Was it the cooling fan?

It would be great to see them do it again on a hot day to see if the grassy knoll theories are correct....[emoticon]


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blofgren

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Posted: 02/24/20 09:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

But But RAM was the safest of all with ZERO brake applications. Not really anything more important.

Also had had a good time climbing with nice cool temps and guess what the fan NEVER came on.


I totally agree.

And if it wasn't for that silly CP4 fuel pump that is now bolted on to it, it is the truck that will do it reliably for many years to come.

4x4ord

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Posted: 02/24/20 11:18pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blofgren wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

But But RAM was the safest of all with ZERO brake applications. Not really anything more important.

Also had had a good time climbing with nice cool temps and guess what the fan NEVER came on.


I totally agree.

And if it wasn't for that silly CP4 fuel pump that is now bolted on to it, it is the truck that will do it reliably for many years to come.


I can certainly see a person buying a Ram for the air suspension or because they prefer the interior of the truck and I can even understand some people liking the idea that they have a Cummins under the hood. It is even possible that the Cummins has a slightly better exhaust brake .... As far as this downhill braking test demonstrating anything I don't think the testers understood the workings of the braking systems well enough to conduct a proper test:

I posted this comment on another thread and although I realize that I could be wrong I feel confident that I have come to a proper understanding of how these braking systems work:

The TFL guys said they had the Ford EB set to auto which is the best setting on the Ford for the downhill test they were doing. However there is more to it than picking a speed to hold the load at and measuring brake applications. For instance, The maximum reverse HP an engine can create occurs at maximum exhaust back pressure and engine redline. So 35 mph was an excellent speed for the Cummins to function at. It put the transmission in a low enough gear to get high torque to the rear axle and had the engine running very close to redline .... At the 4:00 and 6:00 minute marks in the video you can see the EB gauge all of a sudden display 236 reverse HP when the engine reaches redline. I believe the gauge is displaying this value while the computer applies the wheel brakes i order to prevent the engine from over revving. You can see that while the EB gauge displays a value, the speed of the truck slows from 37 mph to 35 and then the wheel brakes are released.

If they had chosen 42 mph as the speed they wanted the truck to hold to the Ram would have had a disadvantage because the truck would have shifted to 3rd gear and the engine would have dropped to about 2400 rpm. At 2400 rpm the engine would have been producing considerably less reverse HP, third gear would have put much less torque to the rear axle and Mr. Truck would have been applying the brakes prior to the engine reaching redline.

I didn't watch the Ford downhill portion again but I suspect they tried to go 35 mph with it as well. The Problem with that is 35 mph puts the Powerstroke in 3rd gear at 2800 rpm and in order to get maximum performance out of the Powerstroke EB they would have run the truck in 3rd gear at about 3400 rpm where it would have been travelling about 42 mph. And better still they could have slowed the Ford to to get it to drop into 2nd gear and ran at 32 mph and 3500 rpm. Had the Ford been running at a higher rpm the computer would have been applying the brakes when the engine rpm reached redline. (I'm not sure what rpm the 2020 Powerstroke needs to reach before the computer applies the brakes .... my '17 redlines at 3600 but I think the 2020 might be even higher)

I think the computer applies the wheel brakes at engine red line, so the Ram computer was performing multiple wheel brake applications where as it was Mr Truck applying the Ford wheel brakes prior to engine red line.


A tester really has to understand the workings of these trucks well to perform tests that demonstrate the full potential of each truck.


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ShinerBock

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Posted: 02/25/20 06:30am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:

So my takeaway from this is that Ford STILL doesn't test to SAE standards with a SAE witness.

As for if it matters....
A farmer who puts the fox in charge of the henhouse will soon run out of eggs.

Sorry fellas I disagree.
I have seen too many rules bent or broken in business when nobody is looking.
Something along these lines is in the news every day.
Prime example: Boeing was allowed to self validate a lot of stuff on a airplane that has been in the news a lot.... An airplane that had a couple of crashes killing hundreds of people. Then incriminating emails surfaced...

Sorry fellas, I disagree with you.


And why should they. The only people who even care are fanboys. I bet if GM didn't do the "certified witness" portion of the very same test then you would not care either. I don't think Ford is lying or has every lied about their power numbers. I say that not only because I know how horsepower actually works, but also knowing how much trouble they would get in if they did. I understand that you want to have this view simply because your favorite is "certified" so it makes you feel that you have a "one up" on the other brand, but the truth is nobody really cares. Going by your standards here, does that mean GM was lying in the past since it was not "certified"?

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Posted: 02/25/20 06:35am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:

The excuses continue to run rapid...

Bottom line the Ford beat the Chevy and Ram up the hill with significant less time. Beat the Chevy down hill with less brake applications. Beat the Chevy in the fuel economy test pulling 30k lbs.

These performance metrics will only mean a better performing trucks for it's customers.


There is not excuses here. I will admit that the Ford will beat all three up that mountain at 20F. I just don't think it would do it at 80F. That is is not an excuse, it is theory based on the trucks equipment and past tests like this at this temperature where it had more power, but came in last. Power creates heat and if it needs a fan at 20F, then I doubt it can sustain that power at 80F.

ib516

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Posted: 02/25/20 07:48am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

The excuses continue to run rapid...

Bottom line the Ford beat the Chevy and Ram up the hill with significant less time. Beat the Chevy down hill with less brake applications. Beat the Chevy in the fuel economy test pulling 30k lbs.

These performance metrics will only mean a better performing trucks for it's customers.


There is not excuses here. I will admit that the Ford will beat all three up that mountain at 20F. I just don't think it would do it at 80F. That is is not an excuse, it is theory based on the trucks equipment and past tests like this at this temperature where it had more power, but came in last. Power creates heat and if it needs a fan at 20F, then I doubt it can sustain that power at 80F.

Maybe that's why it didn't win last year despite having the highest power numbers on paper?


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Cummins12V98

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Posted: 02/25/20 08:38am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blofgren wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

But But RAM was the safest of all with ZERO brake applications. Not really anything more important.

Also had had a good time climbing with nice cool temps and guess what the fan NEVER came on.


I totally agree.

And if it wasn't for that silly CP4 fuel pump that is now bolted on to it, it is the truck that will do it reliably for many years to come.


I am not a defender of the CP4 but Ford doesn't seem to have the issues any longer. RAM has had it on the market for one year with no issues I have heard of so time will tell!

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 02/25/20 08:43am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"I don't think the testers understood the workings of the braking systems well enough to conduct a proper test"

I have said for years how to conduct the test using cruise control and lowering the desired speed to hold the desired speed and also locking in the desired gear. The RAM simply used the high RPM's at 35 to their advantage and I will say their programming must have improved since my 2015's tech because it held very nicely without adjusting cruise speed.

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