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wilber1

Abbotsford B.C.

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Posted: 04/08/20 08:06pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ExxWhy wrote:

6door74 wrote:

There goes that foolish car death argument again.


OK, I am a dummy. Explain to me why that is a foolish argument. A life saved is a life saved, how do you see it differently?


Sigh. Does each car accident cause several other car accidents? Car accidents are isolated events, the exact opposite of a pandemic.


"Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice" WSC

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Walaby

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Posted: 04/08/20 08:11pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

For those with the means to weather the storm, or who are currently employed and not negatively impacted financially (Im one of those), it is easy for us to say just gut it out. For many people, losing their job or their business can have a much more profound impact, to include death. So, to them, getting back to work can be a matter of life and death.

That being said, I do my best to contribute to local businesses any chance I get. Today we did take out. In the order, it asked if I wanted to donate up to $10 towards employee relief fund. I did. I also gave the gal trying to keep up with all the takeout orders a tip of $30. Not saying everyone can do it, but if you can, every little bit helps.

For a lot of people, there might not be anything worse than high unemployment. I suspect most of us on this forum have the means to push through and survive. Just remember, there's a lot more people out there that are right on the edge, and this could push them over a point of no return.

Mike


Im Mike Willoughby, and I approve this message.
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wnjj

Cornelius, Oregon

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Posted: 04/08/20 08:23pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lantley wrote:

wnjj wrote:

ford truck guy wrote:

" Their Side " ?? [emoticon]

SO this virus IS IN FACT a political virus,?? I had no idea....

and here I thought we were all in tis together ??


Not everything with "sides" is political. There are clearly those who think we should do everything we can to save lives from the virus and there are those who think we should take less drastic action so as to save lives and livelihoods of others now and in the future.


At this point I'm not interested in saving anyone's livelihood even my own.I don't want anyone to die to protect my livelihood..
I also don't want to inadvertently kill anyone trying to maintain my livelihood
In time the virus will pass and our lives and livelihoods will return.
However those that die from the virus will not return.
The goal is to save lives period.
Understand nothing monetary compares to a life. Trying to equate bank accounts to lives is the epitome of selflessness and foolish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life

And

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

Because causing mass financial ruin will certainly cause loss of life. It simply isn’t as black and white as you try to make it.

rexlion

Broken Arrow OK

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Posted: 04/08/20 08:40pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JimK-NY wrote:

rexlion wrote:

CBS just showed a guy who died, not from the virus, but because of his heart, after his elective heart surgery was canceled. If we hadn't reacted so strongly to the virus, he might be alive now instead.

People forget about 'the law of unintended consequences.'


Unintended consequences of what? In the NY State the hospitals are filling up. Patients with Covid are not receiving any care unless there symptoms are severe. In fact patients cannot even get tested without severe symptoms. They are being told to return home and self isolate. Patients with other conditions are indeed also only getting care when the needs are immediate.

So what is the solution? Just send all Covid patients home and let them take their chances. Without vents and intensive care, we know the results. The death rate will be in the range of 5%. With no controls and no care that would mean 5 million agonizing deaths in the US.
"5 million agonizing deaths" is such an exaggeration, it's amazing anyone would say it. That estimate came from Ferguson of Imperial College back in, oh, early February I think, and it was based on bad assumptions. One of those assumptions was, they didn't include any mitigation steps whatsoever. Another bad assumption was the incorrect numbers they input from China. Oxford University's estimates and Stanford's estimates are way, way lower.... 120,000 deaths or less in the US, IIRC.

Sure, that guy with the heart problem was just one guy. But we simply can't estimate the number of people whose lives will be lost (or ruined) due to a prolonged shutdown. There's the postponed surgeries, the increase in crime victims, the increase in suicides, the people harmed through malnutrition when food supplies become scarce, and on and on. But be assured, there will be collateral damage and the longer the shutdown the worse that damage will be.

We already have farmers in the south who don't know how they'll find laborers to pick their berries or vegetables that will ripen in the next month. China's production of drugs, and the packaging materials to put them in, is way behind normal and we depend on them for tons of stuff nowadays. There are probably dozens of similar things I haven't even thought of. If we don't all get back to work soon, life might look very different for months or years to come.


Mike G.
--for now, using a cargo trailer for camping--
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. --Benjamin Franklin
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troubledwaters

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Posted: 04/08/20 08:54pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lantley wrote:

...
If a little suffering keeps a few more people alive so be it.
There are much worse tragedies than high unemployment and the stock market crash. Guess what they can take your money but they can't eat you!
Be glad you have your health! Be glad your alive!Nothing else really matters. Including , RV'S, money, Jobs etc.
Your health and your families health are top priority. Everything else is just stuff that is ultimately disposable.
Wow how profound!
I just have one question. Tens of thousands of people die every year from seasonal flu, why don't we shut this country down every year for 3 months?
After all, if a little suffering keeps a few more people alive it's worth it right?

ExxWhy

Ohio

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Posted: 04/08/20 09:18pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wilber1 wrote:

ExxWhy wrote:

6door74 wrote:

There goes that foolish car death argument again.


OK, I am a dummy. Explain to me why that is a foolish argument. A life saved is a life saved, how do you see it differently?


Sigh. Does each car accident cause several other car accidents? Car accidents are isolated events, the exact opposite of a pandemic.


Does a covid-19 death cause several other deaths?

Either way, life is lost. Why is one more important than another?





fj12ryder

Platte City, MO

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Posted: 04/08/20 09:20pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The estimated deaths from seasonal flu is very rough at between 20,000 and 60,000. Like I said, very roughly estimated.


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time2roll

Southern California

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Posted: 04/08/20 10:04pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Close to 2,000 died in the US each of the last two days. The trend seems to still be increasing and may drop soon but currently we are at a rate of 700,000 per year dying of CV-19.


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wnjj

Cornelius, Oregon

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Posted: 04/08/20 11:26pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

time2roll wrote:

Close to 2,000 died in the US each of the last two days. The trend seems to still be increasing and may drop soon but currently we are at a rate of 700,000 per year dying of CV-19.

Honest question for you: Are you trying to make an absurdity on purpose or do you not understand how “the curve” of a pandemic works? The area under the curve isn’t the peak height multiplied by the entire X axis. The instantaneous rate is meaningless as a per year number. Even the experts’ model is only predicting about 60k total by August, where it’s effectively over with.

I hope people don’t really think this is that bad.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america

MrWizard

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Posted: 04/09/20 12:16am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Every covid virus infection

will cause more covid infections mitigation of the virus will cause less pain less agony less deaths, and in the long run , less financial ruin than uncontrolled chaos of retuning to work to soon
And peaking the cases to higher numbers
Yes people die of the flu every winter, but not in numbers that overload hospitals, which is the case right now


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