Good Sam Club Open Roads Forum: Towing: ProPride and lifted 3500
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blt2ski

Kirkland, Wa

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Posted: 09/10/21 11:17am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

To have deformed springs in one trip would take way more wieght on you RA than most of us will ever put on our trucks as personal/RV rigs. I've had trailer springs deform I the 50-70k mile range loaded at 80-100% ratings all the time. Truck springs with constant 80+% loads of gravel, soil, etc in landscape construction biz in 100k miles.
I've not seen it except 20+ years down the road in personal use rigs.

Also, remember, your trailer go to the dealer on a trailer, or more likely, pulled behind a 35 series rig with no bars. Don't worry!

Marty


92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
2014 Chevy 1500 Dual cab 4x4
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer

Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 09/10/21 12:27pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blt2ski wrote:



I noticed the change in my truck from a 31.5 to 32.5 tires. Also 10 lbs heavier! Latter is probably the biggest part. Then I only have a 4.3 V6. Raised it 2". I'm now about a 3.2 effective vs the 3.42 stock. Even at that, It does good. Lost 1-2 mpg tho.....

You being lifted, taller tires. I'm not going to say my experience is equal.


Marty


Your experience is right on. I'm over 1500lbs tongue weight for sure on the new giddyup and the only effect it has, is it's probably helping my front end and front tires last longer. Drives the same.

Big tires and lifts are mpg killers for sure. Firs't lifted rig that I've had that wasn't jsut a toy and has a working fuel gauge! lol
37s, 6" lift, 3.42 gears, 100hp+ extra under the bonnet, she drinks diesel like a fcking D8 Cat!
That combo is at least 4 mpg worse than stock, in daily driving. And I'd estimate 2mpg worse, towing.

It doesn't help that it keeps inhaling Kias and Hyundays....which hurts aerodynamics and adds weight! LOL

But on the upside, if I've shaved so you cant see white whiskers and have my flat brimmed hat and Oakley's on, hot chicks stare, until they get close enought o see im old enough to be their dad!


2016 Ram 2500, MotorOps.ca EFIlive tuned, 5” turbo back, 6" lift on 37s
2017 Heartland Torque T29

ApexAZ

Gilbert, AZ

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Posted: 09/10/21 03:53pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blt2ski wrote:

To have deformed springs in one trip would take way more wieght on you RA than most of us will ever put on our trucks as personal/RV rigs. I've had trailer springs deform I the 50-70k mile range loaded at 80-100% ratings all the time. Truck springs with constant 80+% loads of gravel, soil, etc in landscape construction biz in 100k miles.
I've not seen it except 20+ years down the road in personal use rigs.

Also, remember, your trailer go to the dealer on a trailer, or more likely, pulled behind a 35 series rig with no bars. Don't worry!

Marty


Thank you!

BackOfThePack

Fort Worth

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Posted: 10/26/21 05:42am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Steering control is what matters. Off-road tires and a lift kit degrade that. Towing makes demands that a solo vehicle doesn’t encounter. Loss-of-control accidents are STEERING accidents. “Skill” is a laughable reply to the problem of making a bad vehicle (pickup) worse.

Those LOC accidents are primarily due to adverse winds. Natural or man-made, or a combination. Lift kit & bad tire choice make this more likely. Can’t feel the problem and the rig is sloppy by every measure. Dialing in too much correction, or of too long a duration (or a combination) is how things go totally wrong.

And a box-shape non-aero TT on leaf springs pretty well can’t be made worse for “stability”,

The “improvement” to a pickup would be to LOWER it and add tires with better grip than what came stock. Wider aspect ratio. Lowered COG is where it’s at. Independent suspension upgrade on trailer, same.

There’s a huge problem with what goes wrong on the highway: it only takes ONCE.

RV accidents are a statistically small subset of road miles accident type. Folks might tow 5k miles of their 20k annual miles. Aren’t running in bad weather, or preferably not after dark. All these tend to lower AWARENESS that TT towing increases the risk factor by 2X. And that’s with a good rig. Not the one described.

You want an off-road capable vehicle, it won’t be a pickup. Build one appropriate. Return the pickup to stock ride height and use standard or optional wide tread tires (no wider than rim) as per factory offerings. Better shocks. Rear Panhard Rod. Poly bushing replacements on anti-roll bars.

And anti-lock trailer disc brakes.

And, anyone’s pickup wasn’t the right choice as tow vehicle unless the rear axle rating is close to being met. 50/50 pickup weight bias FF/RR when SOLO (family & camping gear aboard). Distribution of tongue weight works best, then. Steering control is maximized (given built-in deficiencies).

Use THREE PASS SCALE METHOD (search). Tires to EXACT loading (pressure). TT MUST be dead-level after being hitched (carpenter level across doorway).

Combined rig WILL stop faster 35-0/mph when hitched properly than the solo truck. It won’t pass that test, join the 95% who never get it right.

You also need to know — IMO — what is top speed for violent maneuvers. Most pickup/square box trailers can’t deal with 35-mph. Will roll, just like a 5’er.

Same for high winds. One has to slow. Immediately and effectively. The TT brakes are CRUCIAL in this.

CONTROL will come down to the TV rear tires NOT losing grip. Once that happens Mario Andretti couldn’t counter it.

A VPP hitch — Hensley or Pro-Pride — can’t be matched (not even close) by older, obsolete designs. But the mismatch between tongue height and lifted truck hitch receiver makes a pickup even worse than it is already. The tail WILL wag the dog (how it seems; the TV is source of the accident).

Do the correct set-up. Perform the tests. Compared to most around here with pickups I run a diesel Corvette to pull my 35’. Can ENDLESSLY do violent shoulder-to-median & back maneuvers — throttle-on at 55-mph — that WILL roll lesser rigs:

Step One is best vehicle design for each

Step Two is best rig conformation.

Step Three is test confirmation.

Grab a son or a friend to help over a few weekends to knock brains together. It’s not complicated, it’s time-consuming the first run-through. The stoopids will try to use tire pressures too high to dial in a bad set-up AND THIS ONLY MAKES IT ALL WORSE.

A travel trailer rig (any) is the least-stable “vehicle” on the Interstate (which were built for tractor-trailers and thus deceive solo vehicle operators of what’s safe and isn’t), it takes TLC to get things right.

I’ve been at this more than fifty years now (3rd generation) and run a Kenworth in my daily job. You want to run the big roads for long trips, TAKE PLEASURE in the problem-solving that comes beforehand.

If you don’t KNOW how to get that state of mind, find someone who does. (Tools).

Today’s traffic — far from cities — is unbelievably bad today. Cars jamming left lane (always illegal), terrible following distances and true reckless behavior we almost NEVER saw just thirty years ago. But we’ve had an invasion by millions who will never understand their role in screwing things up for everyone else. Permanent 12-yr olds, (And those that used to know better doing the same. No father, not after divorce, so always little boys. Little girls. Not adults. Not cooperative, only selfish).

So . . . it really WON’T matter as to who’s at fault should there be an accident. Get that thru your head. CUT RISK DOWN. Rollovers = fatalities.

Lifted, with WRONG highway tires — past all other factors — makes risk HIGHER.


A travel trailer is a great thing. Can’t recommend them highly enough. But get the rig BEST.


.

* This post was last edited 10/26/21 06:21am by BackOfThePack *   View edit history


2004 555 CTD QC LB NV-5600
1990 35’ Silver Streak

BackOfThePack

Fort Worth

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Posted: 10/26/21 06:07am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Another test is MPG.

(Fuel burn isn’t just $, it’s an indicator of mechanical & tire problems. A window. 10% increase means SOMETHING IS WRONG. You MUST have a NUMERICAL baseline for diagnosis).

Versus the solo TV (same load & passenger weight as for extended camping trip), the towing penalty is 40% in steady-state. 1971 or 2021 makes no difference at all. It’s an aero problem.

Anything higher, it’s work-time to identify and fix the problem or problems. In both vehicles it’s usually alignment or brake drag, first (after conformation of TV steer axle weight being same solo or hitched).

Take another weekend to test. Head out of town 45-60 miles to get warm-up completed (tires take longer) and use CAT SCALE to verify settings. Drop trailer. (Early in the day is less traffic).

Solo, drive a 200/mile loop (more gallons burned = more accurate) all on cruise control back to same highway filling station. As with initial stop, just fill tank to auto-shutoff.

Then the same loop while hitched. Do turn-around at the same empty crossover.

62-mph. Let traffic flow around you. (Lights on). Never use brakes, accelerate or change lanes.

Your teenage daughter can be the driver both times as WHO is driving isn’t relevant. (Let the TV run the drivetrain, “driver” only there to steer.)

A true aero TT will be under 40% change. A badly designed TT (interior layout plus slides) will be somewhat worse. 50% plus is unacceptable.

Exact numbers don’t matter, that was baked-in at purchase (bought mine with this as a priority; 15-mpg average in a 62’ combined rig). With both vehicles you now have the TRUE high mpg numbers,. (Last test would be TV solo. Scaled; driver only plus truly permanent gear aboard ONLY; same route & speed, etc),

The test was for the EXACT percentage change, solo to hitched. (And curb weight MPG test).

.

* This post was edited 10/26/21 06:26am by BackOfThePack *

BackOfThePack

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Posted: 10/26/21 06:50am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

How to get better?

Take Cat ticket with solo vehicle family and gear aboard for extended trip. REPLICATE THIS for all regular driving (sand bags, etc) 13-week minimum. No tire or brake wear. Mpg just about as good as when empty.

Drive like an adult (you’ll be the only one). Back off. Cruise 2-3/mph UNDER flow. Never stop. And never idle. GLIDE!!

Be dead smooth in all you do. Drive always as if you’re hitched. (Safety & fuel economy track almost exactly as it’s about BRAKING).

Bar the 17-year old in you from ever again having the keys.

WHAT IS YOUR TOTAL COMBINED-RIG STOPPING DISTANCE FROM 60-MPH? You’ve tested that, right?

Maintain that space. Manage others around you fastest. See farthest ahead & adapt earliest. Etc.

I’ll make it simple: Be the only American on the road that day.

Cooperation was how we won wars, and it showed itself on the big road (danger) until a generation ago. Paperwork doesn’t make for a citizen.

I run 5-600/miles per day all across the USA, and — by simply maintaining space — end nearly every other trouble. Takes time (years) to understand a big truck. Do your part with that heavy solo vehicle running around town. Body-memory, is closest analogy. Tires & brakes should both last over 100k. If they don’t = remedial training necessary.

That you don’t know anyone who drives normally like this means little. I know many who do. The ones who never drove commercially aren’t left out. A very few car-only drivers have been the best I’ve seen.

No surprises. As there are no “accidents”. Just your failure. (“Fault” irrelevant, as you could have done something differently. But chose not to learn & practice).

Lose the lift and the kiddie tires. Or put your face diaper back on and go get the next booster death-jab. Serious accidents (fatalities) are up by 12% in 2021 since 2018 (last normal year) EVEN WITH fewer miles run.

The numbers tell a story for those listening.

A good day on the road has a plan well-executed. Within those plans are details that have to be practiced. KNOWN parameters. BEST condition of gear (vehicles plus THE HITCH RIGGING as it’s equally-weighted in value to the vehicles). Alert, aware, and relaxed. All stops chosen before leaving. Adequate maps & radio. Avoidance of packs, maintains maximum space.

I’ve seen more RV accidents than I could count. Most didn’t involve other vehicles. I’ve predicted plenty based on their passing me. I know what RV insulation looks like floating in the air. The smell when on fire. Been the only one there for far too long with dead parents and a surviving child.

Our hands are already full with the rig, alone.
Same as with a big truck.
Our abilities are tested. Excuses won’t cut it.

Don’t reach for more than you can ably grasp.
Around you are those with lesser ability and growing frenzy.

Be in the world, but not of it.

.

* This post was edited 10/26/21 07:14am by BackOfThePack *

ApexAZ

Gilbert, AZ

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Posted: 10/26/21 08:41am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thanks for the long, thoughtful post! I consider myself to be a pretty good and safe driver. I have not been in an accident since I was a teenager back in the 90's. It wasn't until I started riding a motorcycle in my early 20's that I really learned how to drive defensively, but it carried over to my regular driving as well. To the point that even when driving my truck, I get annoyed when people pace me in my blind spot when they have plenty of space forward or aft , not to mention the fact they are clogging up the fast lane. So while I'm not very experienced with pulling such a heavy load, my defensive driving is way ahead of most others on the road. The fact that I even came here seeking advice should tell you, and others, that safety is a top concern of mine.

I can't revert my truck lift and trying to buy a new truck proved difficult given the current supply chain issues. On the other hand, I live in Arizona and like my 4 wheel drive with kiddie tires and lifted it accordingly. I also knew that I wanted to tow a travel trailer, so I didn't want to go to extreme height either. I can't afford both a truck and a dedicated 4x4 vehicle. Nonetheless, I have towed the trailer and it feels pretty solid (not that I have much of a baseline to compare to). Even in wind I haven't experienced any sway and steering/control don't really feel all that different to me. Big RV's and trucks passing me in either direction on a 2 lane highway have no effect whatsoever. I don't even feel it. I will say the braking distance is a bit longer so I have to start braking earlier than I normally would. Also, the truck is a lot stiffer under the load and we can really feel the bumps a lot more. I assume this is to be expected.

I'm not sure what booster shots or face diapers have to do with anything, other than maybe it relates to risk management and public safety in general, similar to driving? It seems off topic overall, though.

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply!

* This post was last edited 10/26/21 05:10pm by an administrator/moderator *   View edit history

Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 10/27/21 09:42am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

@ApexAZ.
Yeah, just enjoy your camper. I'm sure it tows as well as you claim.

Now lets see a pic of that heavy hauler all hooked up!

* This post was edited 10/28/21 08:03am by an administrator/moderator *

ApexAZ

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Posted: 10/27/21 10:24am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Grit dog wrote:

@ApexAZ.
Yeah, just enjoy your camper. I'm sure it tows as well as you claim.
Now lets see a pic of that heavy hauler all hooked up!


The rig is currently parked, but we plan to take it out the weekend of 11/6 to practice backing it up and parking it. We found a nice big open gravel lot not too far from home where I can set up some cones. I also need to take it back to the scales with the toy loaded to get another weigh in and tongue weight measurement. I'll snap a pic then. Stay tuned!

* This post was edited 10/28/21 08:04am by an administrator/moderator *

BenK

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Posted: 10/27/21 12:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Glad you are asking and taking in the advice and note that on these freebie forums...the advice is worth the price paid and that advisors have zero skin in your game.

Agree with most of BackOfThePack's info. As it makes sense to me and has many aspects of the laws of physics. Though there are more in play that many don't care to even think about.

On that, all things engineered/designed/etc are NOT for the good days out there when a mid-sized half ton can tow a stripper Space Shuttle...or a VW compact can tow a 747...but...for that day Mr Murphy crosses either your path or someone else's path to bring them into your path. So either you have the right stuff & dialed in spot on. As there won't be time to go back to the store or reset up.

The designers can NOT design for every potential out there and CYA themselves via specifications and 'fine print', which has too many not understand what that all means. Ditto 'recommend' that is in all aspects of any manual.

Good that you can and will test your setup out in an open gravel area and what FUN that will be. Not many are willing, nor able to do that. ON that, also know that things happen sooner/quicker/etc at higher speeds.

Since lifted and higher CG, hope your track was also increased significantly with aftermarket wheel offset. That lessens the tip over point or angle. Hope your lift system has double shocks and increased torsional rate anti-lean bars. Higher durometer anti-lean bars as noted by BackOfThePack is also a good idea if you haven't already (Delrin would be my choice and suggest staying away from nylon types).

Some lift kits has blocks that are angled to point the diff U-Joint upwards. Bad and will wear out that U-Joint quickly. Both output shaft and diff pinion shaft center lines MUST be parallel no matter what changes to the Z height the lift introduces. Stick with square blocks.

Fun stuff and enjoy your setup !


-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...

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