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Bobbo

Wherever I park

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Posted: 10/02/21 07:35am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

[image]

Green As Shanghai Coal?

I was in Beijing for a few days in 2016. I can attest that the photograph above is NOT an exaggeration.


Bobbo and Lin
2017 F-150 XLT 4x4 SuperCab w/Max Tow Package 3.5l EcoBoost V6
2017 Airstream Flying Cloud 23FB


MEXICOWANDERER

las peñas, michoacan, mexico

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Posted: 10/02/21 10:19am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The USA went from a top petroleum exporting country to importing crude in one year. Refinery output and demand remain stable. But prices are absurd which makes fracking attractive...

And study after study claims the continental USA has enough easily recovered natural gas to supply twenty-centuries worth, even counting growth. I simply do not understand the controversy of coal or fuel-oil fired power generation.

We have a 1.8 GIGAwatt oil fired combination generating and seawater distilling plant close by. But natural gas is not available.

The electric car industry needs consumer comprehensible fact comparisons like how many hours of operation will a vehicle battery supply in 30F weather at night in stop and go rush hour, as well as daylight open flat highway operation?

Upgrading the nation's electrical capacity is a trillion dollar venture. I've a feeling that the last thing the government wishes is to let the public know how these upgrades are going to be funded. It is common for a 4 bdrm all electric house to consume 4,000 kWh monthly. Then add 2 cars. Compliance will be achieved by making traditional energy sources absurdly expensive.

Timmo!

South-central Oregon...on the river

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Posted: 10/02/21 12:10pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

Compliance will be achieved by making traditional energy sources absurdly expensive.


That's right, punish good willed people for following their individuality and not bowing to the "one size fits all" majority.

My wife drives 3500 miles a year. If she were to buy a BEV today (pick one), when will her new BEV achieve carbon parity with a comparable ICE vehicle? I speculate the battery pack will hit end of life long before that day and the carbon emissions from manufacturing the new battery pack will essentially extend her "breakeven" point by another decade or so.

So, forcing my wife to buy a BEV is not a GREEN solution. Whereas, forcing you to buy a BEV is probably a very GREEN solution.

rlw999

Washington State

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Posted: 10/02/21 12:43pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Timmo! wrote:

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

Compliance will be achieved by making traditional energy sources absurdly expensive.


That's right, punish good willed people for following their individuality and not bowing to the "one size fits all" majority.

My wife drives 3500 miles a year. If she were to buy a BEV today (pick one), when will her new BEV achieve carbon parity with a comparable ICE vehicle? I speculate the battery pack will hit end of life long before that day and the carbon emissions from manufacturing the new battery pack will essentially extend her "breakeven" point by another decade or so.

So, forcing my wife to buy a BEV is not a GREEN solution. Whereas, forcing you to buy a BEV is probably a very GREEN solution.



You omitted some key information like what car your wife is driving, so I put her in a 33 mpg small car. Since she drives so little, and you said I can pick the BEV, I put her in a Mini Cooper SE EV. I picked a pessimistic 100kgCO2/kWh for the battery pack, Tesla is about half that in their American produced batteries. I picked the German power mix, which is fairly close to Oregon where about half the power comes from renewables, and most of the rest comes from Natural Gas.

This calculator came up with 20,000km, or 12,500 miles, so your wife's BEV will reach carbon parity in about 4 years.

The battery warranty will cover her for 8 years/80,000 miles, but at such low usage, it will likely last much longer than that.

* This post was edited 10/02/21 03:42pm by rlw999 *

Gdetrailer

PA

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Posted: 10/02/21 01:10pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rlw999 wrote:

Timmo! wrote:

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

Compliance will be achieved by making traditional energy sources absurdly expensive.


That's right, punish good willed people for following their individuality and not bowing to the "one size fits all" majority.

My wife drives 3500 miles a year. If she were to buy a BEV today (pick one), when will her new BEV achieve carbon parity with a comparable ICE vehicle? I speculate the battery pack will hit end of life long before that day and the carbon emissions from manufacturing the new battery pack will essentially extend her "breakeven" point by another decade or so.

So, forcing my wife to buy a BEV is not a GREEN solution. Whereas, forcing you to buy a BEV is probably a very GREEN solution.



You omitted some key information like what car your wife is driving, so I put her in a 33 mpg small car. Since she drives so little, and you said I can pick the BEV, I put her in a Mini Cooper SE EV. I picked a pessimistic 100kgCO2/kWh for the battery pack, Tesla is about half that in their American produced batteries. I picked the German power mix, which is fairly close to Oregon where about half the power comes from renewables, and most of the rest comes from Natural Gas.

This calculator came up with 20,000km, or 12,500 miles, so your wife's BEV will reach carbon parity in about 4 years.

The battery warranty will cover her for 8 years/80,000 miles, but at such low usage, it will likely last much longer than that.


The section I highlighted in bold is an incorrect "assumption".

All the lower 48 states with the exception of Texas participate in the national power grid (AKA "The Grid").

In all of the states that participate in the grid, the power from all power stations across the US are "shared" regardless of the states borders.

Texas runs their own independent "grid" which does not share power generation from outside the states border.

So, in reality plugging your vehicle into the "grid" in your home state can and will use power from other power generation systems outside of your state. Pretty much negating every single "advantage" of being "green" since you are now partaking of coal and natural gas produced power..

Some states like PA do offer the option to specify a certain power generation company based on a specified preset time limited cost per KWhr or if you want to attempt to use only power generation companies which are "renewables" only.. And by the way, specifying only all "renewable" generating power typically results in paying a considerably higher cost per KWhr further negating any cost savings over liquid fuel powered vehicles.

Not to mention, even if you have specified a renewable power generation company, you are still using the national grid to get the power to you.. If your hand picked source does not have enough generation capacity the short fall is made up by all the other "dirty" power generation sources..

And yes, I get bombarded with all kinds of electric company scams because of PAs PUC allowing anyone that wishes to "sell" power, access to POCO customer information..

rlw999

Washington State

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Posted: 10/02/21 01:28pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gdetrailer wrote:



In all of the states that participate in the grid, the power from all power stations across the US are "shared" regardless of the states borders.

Texas runs their own independent "grid" which does not share power generation from outside the states border.

So, in reality plugging your vehicle into the "grid" in your home state can and will use power from other power generation systems outside of your state. Pretty much negating every single "advantage" of being "green" since you are now partaking of coal and natural gas produced power..


While it's true that most of the USA is on the same grid, state is still a good geopolitical boundary, since it's the area that most citizens have control over and state power imports/exports are measured. I can't tell Idaho how to generate their power, but I can influence power in my own state. Oregon is a net exporter of power, so it's still fair to say that the power mix in Oregon is the same power mix used to fuel an EV there even if some of the electrons came from a coal plant in Nevada.

I could see your argument for, say, Vermont where a significance portion of power is imported.

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 10/02/21 02:40pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gdetrailer wrote:



So, in reality plugging your vehicle into the "grid" in your home state can and will use power from other power generation systems outside of your state. Pretty much negating every single "advantage" of being "green" since you are now partaking of coal and natural gas produced power.


Or Nuclear which may be in the long run the WORST possible choice. But who cares about our great great great great great grandchildren anyway?


Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, soon to have SiO2 batteries, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

Timmo!

South-central Oregon...on the river

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Posted: 10/02/21 02:51pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

GD

Wifey drives MBZ S430, lots of metal surrounds my bride. She wants an all wheel/4 WD now, but let's stick to your Mini Cooper example (even though that car is really for kids).

And your link to the "calculator" does not work. I would love to see how they calculated a 12,500 mile carbon parity for a mixed grid (which Oregon is--in descending order: hydro, coal, natural gas, wind and nuke).

https://www.oregon.gov/energy/energy-oregon/Pages/Electricity-Mix-in-Oregon.aspx

Reisender

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Posted: 10/02/21 03:09pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

It is common for a 4 bdrm all electric house to consume 4,000 kWh monthly. Then add 2 cars. Compliance will be achieved by making traditional energy sources absurdly expensive.


That seems REALLY HIGH for a 4 bedroom house. Ours is less than a quarter of that but our heat and hot water are natural gas. But our friends have a 3200 ish square foot house and 3 electric vehicles (two teslas and a leaf) and its more like half of that. And that is straight electric, (well, heat pump etc) no natural gas, in BC Canada in the coldest winter month (January) and they do the vast majority of their charging at home (other than road trips). Here is his power analysis. Pretty much all of his power comes from solar on his roof as well.

I don't know. From what I can see the impact on the grid won't be that huge. Solar is getting common in these parts now, on new and older homes. Power is cheap here but it still seems like a lot of people are going solar. (9 cents a kwh) We probably won't just because our power bill is so small. We charge at 2 in the morning every morning. Car is usually charged by three. But we have a short commute of 40 ish kilometers. Maybe 8 KWH max.

JMHO.

Heres his graph he published.

[image]

3 tons

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Posted: 10/02/21 03:21pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The problem is essential two fold:

a) As with the ‘current health malady’ that’s continually being sliced and diced on the Hill and in the news, we’ll likely never learn the truth about ‘green EV’s’ and their claimed net carbon reduction assumptions, or whether or not a ‘real carbon crisis’ even exist (e.g. now deemed, socially tabooed ‘wrong-think’)…

b) The uber politicalization of ‘the truth’ (the adulteration of empirical science via outcome based scientism), because ‘common folks’ (well intentioned, but distracted-unengaged taxpayers) lack the need to be apprised of any authentic science.

Kinda brings to mind that famous old axiom, “The truth will set you free”, but when it comes to EV’s and so-called ‘Green energy’ (et al), who are WE to demand objective science??

3 tons

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