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time2roll

Southern California

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Posted: 10/06/21 07:09pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

noteven wrote:

Actually this proposal is being blocked by eastern Canadian political interests at every turn.
Even more reason not to do this in the US.


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free radical

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Posted: 10/06/21 07:21pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Can someone explain why not refine the oil right there in Alberta instead of wasting money building pipelines and moving it elsewhere?

There is already existing refinery if I remember corectly.

noteven

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Posted: 10/06/21 08:23pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

free radical wrote:

Can someone explain why not refine the oil right there in Alberta instead of wasting money building pipelines and moving it elsewhere?

There is already existing refinery if I remember corectly.


Alberta refineries have a capacity of approximately 540,000 bbl/day

Alberta upgraders have approximately 1,480,000 bbl/day capacity to upgrade heavy crude (high asphalt content) and bitumen from oil sands into “synthetic” crude oil.

Saskatchewan refineries have a capacity of approx 184000 bbl/day.

The Husky upgrader on the border At Lloydminster is approx 29,000 bbl/day. It also has an ethanol plant. The Lloydminster refinery produces asphalt.

A person from the industry being interviewed on radio estimated building a new refinery in Canada to be a 15 to 20 year project through opposition, studies, elections, more studie, lawsuits, rule changes after the fact, etc.

In addition a petroleum engineer told me that finished refinery products such as diesel fuel and gasoline are more harmful and harder to clean up if spilled than oil in it’s natural state.

Alberta and Saskatchewan’s proven oil reserves including bitumen are ranked 3rd in the world behind Venezuela and Saudi Arabia.

Canada ranks 4th in production behind USA, Russia, Saudi Arabia.

Canada was not recently asked to increase production for export to it’s largest trading partner, closest neighbor and ally. OPEC was.

* This post was edited 10/06/21 08:35pm by noteven *

Timmo!

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Posted: 10/07/21 10:19am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Which evil is more acceptable?

Oil spills or forest fires attributed to electrical powerlines?

Wiki's partial list of worldwide oil spills include "tanker rollover oil spills" as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills

[image]
https://ourworldindata.org/oil-spills

And...for the period of 1969-2017

[image]
https://www.noaa.gov/education/resource-collections/ocean-coasts/oil-spills

In that void south of Oregon and north of Mexico: "Over 1,500 California fires in the past 6 years — including the deadliest ever — were caused by one company:" PG&E. (Nov 3, 2019)

https://www.businessinsider.com/pge-caus........a-wildfires-safety-measures-2019-10?op=1

"A list of some of the fires attributed to PG&E powerline equipment"

https://wildfiretoday.com/2021/04/06/a-l........s-attributed-to-pge-powerline-equipment/

Which poison is better?

rlw999

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Posted: 10/07/21 10:47am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Timmo! wrote:

Which evil is more acceptable?

Oil spills or forest fires attributed to electrical powerlines?


That's known as a False Dichotomy - it's not a choice between forest fires and oil spills.

time2roll

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Posted: 10/07/21 11:03am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Timmo! wrote:

Which evil is more acceptable?


Apparently this one will continue for another 100 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_oil_spill

300 to 700 barrels per day for the next 100 years.... Should this be on the map?

Timmo!

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Posted: 10/07/21 11:16am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rlw999 wrote:

Timmo! wrote:

Which evil is more acceptable?

Oil spills or forest fires attributed to electrical powerlines?


That's known as a False Dichotomy - it's not a choice between forest fires and oil spills.


If a forest fire is caused by electric transmission lines, then it is not an act of nature. PG&E has caused more fires than Carters has pills. The need for building more transmission lines will increase exponentially as BEV ownership increases. Ergo, more fires.

Windmills kill bird and requires a huge landmass (somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of USA) to provide the power this nation needs.

Solar has a similar problem, and would require about 25% of USA's land to provide the power needed.

But the power generated from current and alternative power still needs to go from here....to there. And its a fact, fires caused by electrical transmission result in more damage ($) than oil spills.

Timmo!

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Posted: 10/07/21 11:25am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

PORTLAND, OR – According to a new report from Environment Oregon Research & Policy Center, Frontier Group and OSPIRG Foundation, the Portland metro area suffered through 55 days of elevated air pollution in 2020. Eugene experienced 73, and Klamath Falls and Harney County both saw over 100. Air pollution increases the risk of premature death, asthma attacks, cancer and other adverse health impacts.

“Even one day of breathing in polluted air is dangerous for our health,” said Jessie Kochaver, Campaign Associate with Environment Oregon Research & Policy Center. “100 days is unacceptable and we need to do more to deliver cleaner air for our communities.”


https://ospirg.org/news/orp/new-report-t........ienced-elevated-levels-polluted-air-2020

Klamath Basin enjoyed 154 days of smoke filled air and affected 100% of its residents.

[image]

rlw999

Washington State

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Posted: 10/07/21 11:39am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Timmo! wrote:


If a forest fire is caused by electric transmission lines, then it is not an act of nature. PG&E has caused more fires than Carters has pills. The need for building more transmission lines will increase exponentially as BEV ownership increases. Ergo, more fires.


Or, you know, PG&E could maintain its powerlines instead of sending money to shareholders:

Pacific Gas & Electric knew for years that dozens of its aging power lines posed a wildfire threat yet failed to replace or repair them, it was reported Wednesday. The company also reportedly spent $5 billion on shareholder dividends despite the need for repairs to decades-old equipment.

Quote:


Windmills kill bird and requires a huge landmass (somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of USA) to provide the power this nation needs.


Everyone's an ecologist when it comes to wind turbines killing birds, but windmills kill an estimatedd 0.25 bird deaths per GWh of generated power, compared to 5.18 for Fossil Fuel plants. But both are dwarfed by birds killed by domestic cats, which kill over a billion birds a year.

Quote:

Solar has a similar problem, and would require about 25% of USA's land to provide the power needed.


Source?

We also compare the solar electric footprint to a number of other land uses. For example, we find that the base case solar electric footprint is equal to less than 2% of the land dedicated to cropland and grazing in the United States, and less than the current amount of land used for corn ethanol production.

3 tons

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Posted: 10/07/21 11:46am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

It’s reassuring to see this debate taking place, but for the energy infrastructure to be able to meet all of our energy needs with absolute accident free perfection is just patently unrealistic…No one savors accidents, and accident avoidance is forever an on-going science - yet our personal energy ‘demands’ (lifestyles of ‘choice’) are mostly an ignored culpable element of the accident matrix…Bottom line is that we all have skin in the game, but the decisions (and subsequent policies…) we make are only as good as the information we receive - poor science (and a near lack of citizen oversight) leads to poor decision making, and near impossibility of arriving at a sentient practical consensus…This is why I’ve stated “show us the objective (non- politicized) science” - we (and our progeny) deserve full disclosure to a non-partisanized point of view - a net carbon analysis would be an obvious place to start…Otherwise, all Good Points [emoticon]

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