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 > The world of tow vehicles would be a better place if

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blt2ski

Kirkland, Wa

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Posted: 01/14/22 01:59pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

In mkirsh's and others example re 25 vs SW35 series. Reality is the 25 need to be lightened up literally gvwr wise! Make it a true beefed up 6 or 8 lug 15 series. Back to more online with the first one I bought in 81, most recent 2000, 6000-6800 grawr, front 4000-5000. The ability to get the smaller motors like the eco boost, smaller diesels that GM and Dodge have. Make it so the 25 does not compete per say with a SW35.
For me and my use, not towing much over 10-12k lbs, 3000-4000 lbs of payload. A truck in this axle wieght class will do that fine. I don't need or want the heavier frame etc that the current 25/35 series trucks wieght in at. I ran into a person at a fuel station. His crew cab short back d/a wieghed a 1000 lbs MORE than my 05 DW crew cab did!
Don't get me wrong, I've always felt the DW 35's were under speed when I was first buying trucks in the 80's .nothing between a 10k gvw and a 20k.
Now there is basically nothing between a 7500 and 11000 gvw truck. Maybe that truck is useless. But I'd bet there are lots of us in or have been in contraction, towing per DOT rules etc, that a beefed up version with the smaller motors better mpg empty etc would be better than the 15's we're driving. Grit and a few others probably fit this truck size as I do.

Marty


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IdaD

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Posted: 01/14/22 02:48pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blt2ski wrote:

In mkirsh's and others example re 25 vs SW35 series. Reality is the 25 need to be lightened up literally gvwr wise! Make it a true beefed up 6 or 8 lug 15 series. Back to more online with the first one I bought in 81, most recent 2000, 6000-6800 grawr, front 4000-5000. The ability to get the smaller motors like the eco boost, smaller diesels that GM and Dodge have. Make it so the 25 does not compete per say with a SW35.
For me and my use, not towing much over 10-12k lbs, 3000-4000 lbs of payload. A truck in this axle wieght class will do that fine. I don't need or want the heavier frame etc that the current 25/35 series trucks wieght in at. I ran into a person at a fuel station. His crew cab short back d/a wieghed a 1000 lbs MORE than my 05 DW crew cab did!
Don't get me wrong, I've always felt the DW 35's were under speed when I was first buying trucks in the 80's .nothing between a 10k gvw and a 20k.
Now there is basically nothing between a 7500 and 11000 gvw truck. Maybe that truck is useless. But I'd bet there are lots of us in or have been in contraction, towing per DOT rules etc, that a beefed up version with the smaller motors better mpg empty etc would be better than the 15's we're driving. Grit and a few others probably fit this truck size as I do.

Marty


You're describing the Titan XD. It sold like a turd in a candy shop.


2015 Cummins Ram 4wd CC/SB


Grit dog

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Posted: 01/14/22 02:54pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

mkirsch wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

How exactly does fewer options make the world a better place?

If you want a dually, buy a dually.

If you want a SRW 1 ton, buy one.

If you want a 3/4 ton, buy one.

This isn't 30yrs ago when you would have to go to each individual dealer and ask for the specs on various options when it came time to purchase. It's easy to get them on the internet.


Fewer options makes the world a better place by simplifying the buying decision. So many times they recommend here "Don't get a 3/4 ton, get a 1 ton SRW, it's the same thing and for a few hundred dollars more you get more payload blah blah blah..."

Except in my experience 1 ton SRWs are far and few between. In normal years dealers tend to have one or two DRWs, several 3/4 tons, and a whole gaggle of 1/2 tons. Nary a 1 ton SRW to be found, leaving most people trying to follow that advice feeling confused and betrayed.

It also eliminates about 50% of the arguments from this website. "Only difference between 3/4 and 1 ton SRW is a leaf in the springs" "No it's noooooot!" "Is toooooooo!"

Wouldn't the world be a better place with less conflict?


Cmon mkirsch... You know that your solid/sound logic has little place on rv.net.


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ksss

Eastern Idaho

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Posted: 01/14/22 05:30pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

IdaD wrote:

blt2ski wrote:

In mkirsh's and others example re 25 vs SW35 series. Reality is the 25 need to be lightened up literally gvwr wise! Make it a true beefed up 6 or 8 lug 15 series. Back to more online with the first one I bought in 81, most recent 2000, 6000-6800 grawr, front 4000-5000. The ability to get the smaller motors like the eco boost, smaller diesels that GM and Dodge have. Make it so the 25 does not compete per say with a SW35.
For me and my use, not towing much over 10-12k lbs, 3000-4000 lbs of payload. A truck in this axle wieght class will do that fine. I don't need or want the heavier frame etc that the current 25/35 series trucks wieght in at. I ran into a person at a fuel station. His crew cab short back d/a wieghed a 1000 lbs MORE than my 05 DW crew cab did!
Don't get me wrong, I've always felt the DW 35's were under speed when I was first buying trucks in the 80's .nothing between a 10k gvw and a 20k.
Now there is basically nothing between a 7500 and 11000 gvw truck. Maybe that truck is useless. But I'd bet there are lots of us in or have been in contraction, towing per DOT rules etc, that a beefed up version with the smaller motors better mpg empty etc would be better than the 15's we're driving. Grit and a few others probably fit this truck size as I do.

Marty


You're describing the Titan XD. It sold like a turd in a candy shop.



I think the reality is the mpg ends not being that much or in the Nissan case no better than the HD diesels. The costs to build don't reflect a huge savings to the customer on the lighter versions. GM has tried the "heavy half ton" concept numerous times and they eventually end up dropping it every time. At the end of the day, I think most would end up buying an HD truck verse a near HD truck. When all the numbers are close, most would pick a more capable truck.

Nissan really laid a turd on their project. Change up somethings, like drop the Cummins, fix the looks and maybe they could have made a better run on that concept. As it was, it was an embarrassing failure for Nissan and Cummins.


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valhalla360

No paticular place.

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Posted: 01/14/22 06:59pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

If F350/3500 SWR trucks were labeled F250/2500 and the 2500 series trucks were discontinued. A 3500 series truck should have duals.


How exactly does fewer options make the world a better place?

If you want a dually, buy a dually.

If you want a SRW 1 ton, buy one.

If you want a 3/4 ton, buy one.

This isn't 30yrs ago when you would have to go to each individual dealer and ask for the specs on various options when it came time to purchase. It's easy to get them on the internet.


If they discontinued the 1 ton SRW and included the overload spring on the 3/4 ton, people who want a 3/4 could still buy their 3/4 ton. Those who want to buy a SRW and have the ability to tow a fiver could still buy their SRW diesel.


So basically, just different names but same options...ehhh.

I think most people will quickly catch the difference between a single and dual rear wheel 1 ton trucks.

If you are doing any significant towing, you are always better off to look at the actual specs rather than the generic categories.


Tammy & Mike
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blt2ski

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Posted: 01/14/22 08:49pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

First off, the nishiit pickup was a turd on most of not ALL accounts, specs etc.
What I'm trying to describe, is typical HD DOT class 2 truck chassis. IE the typical 8600-8800 gvwr truck most or many of us grew up with. DOT range of 8400-10,000 lbs gvwr.
My 2014 GM with it's 7200 gvwr has been labeled a std 15 as mine is, a LD 2500 in the early 90's, HD 15 in the 70's to 80's time frame. Falls in the LD DOT 6001-8399 range. Same emissions etc as DOT class 1 of 0-6000gvwr.
My opinion, of course I'm probably hairbrainded on this. Manufactures with today's smaller higher powered small engines, higher than most BB V8 of your rigs, could up the springs of my truck, out a 9.5" RA like the V8 rigs have. Put a 5-6k set of rear springs, us the smaller V6 diesels, in GMs the cylinder shut off 4.3, 5.3 and 6.2 motors. One might not get the whole 22-26 mpg freeway empty miles the 15 series are getting. The V6 diesel instead of 30-40, 25-35 mpg. Yes towing no one gets much more than 12 maybe 14 on a blue moon day.
A CC SB truck will wieght in at 5509-6000 empty, vs 8-8500 for the current 25/35sw truck equals. My 96 sw3500 was 6600. 05 DA DW 7300 empty.
Yes GVWRs are now in the DOT class 3 relm, ie 10,001 to 14k.
Cummins12v's DW 3500 has a chassis etc on par with 1990's GM/Ford 45 series trucks. Is that truck truly a 1ton DOT class 3 truck? My 89 dw R3500 was in reality class 2 truck with it's 10k gvwr.
I'm sure I've gone on a different tangent than OP was thinking. But as many note, marketing vs reality are two different creatures

Marty

JRscooby

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Posted: 01/15/22 06:13am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

valhalla360 wrote:

JRscooby wrote:

The talk of picking engine to put in any brand off truck has been common in heavy trucks forever.
IMHO, a great improvement in TV market would be for the manufacturers to sell glider kit or complete trucks without engines, so a guy that spent all the money to buy a truck with half million mile engine can use the engine for it's lifespan. And to give you a reason I think this is good idea, I bought a '76 Pete with a 1693 Cat. Records on the engine showed that was the 3rd truck.


1) No manufacturer is going to purposely cut out a big part of the cost of a truck...including the associated profits.


I thought the OP was discussing a better world. But you are right, as long as people are willing to throw half the engine life away when they replace a pickup the manufacturer is happy to sell.

Quote:

2) The days of simple mechanical diesels are long gone. Over 20yrs (typical life of a truck), the technology is likely to be wildly different and limiting the chassie so it can plug and play with a 20yr old engine would be a huge hassle and likely to run up against emissions and other regulatory issues.


I have looked at heavy trucks for over 50 years, seen changes in patterns. I remember ads in industry magazines from early '70s International selling Glider Kits (Steering axle, frame and cab) set up for 427 GMC spark plug motor. (Last 427 I worked was in '71 Diamond Rio) Back then, if you took good care of engine and drive train, the numbers often worked to upgrade at parts counter than (GK) instead of show room. Then the oil embargo forced major changes in engines. (Friend replaced his 8V71 that needed overhaul with 6V92 in his old cabover IHC. Said by the time he changed oil 3rd time had saved enough fuel to pay the difference) At the same time, laws changed so GK stopped selling. But over the last 15 years, emission regulations change, some are buy GKs and running older engines, (3406E out of my last truck, '95 Pete, is in 2019 Western Star)
And how many people on this site have bought new pickup, with all the whiz-bang tech, had problems and been told the best solution is to delete the emission control system? Nobody will admit that for a very large percentage of RVers a better available option would of been buy gasoline powered where the emission system problems have been worked out to the point we have both more power and better economy than pre emission standard levels. A perfect world, another option would be use the last half of the life of the engine out of the truck that has started to nickel/dime you.

Quote:

Then you have the PR issues when people take photos of the new 2022 Brand X truck broken down on the side of the road because someone mucked up the engine install.


Sorry, but I assume most people/shops that would take on the job of building a truck out of a pickup glider kit would be able to do a quality job. And would that PR be that much worse than multi-thousand dollar engine repair right after warrantee ends?

Quote:

Honestly, if you are OK with outdated technology, you can keep chassie and engine going for 40yrs...but after a point, it doesn't make much sense.


If I could prove it, I would bet that a very large percentage of people don't much care about tech of engine as long as it does a good job, compared to the number that demand all of what I call FREDs in the cab.

rhagfo

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Posted: 01/15/22 06:48am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

valhalla360 wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

If F350/3500 SWR trucks were labeled F250/2500 and the 2500 series trucks were discontinued. A 3500 series truck should have duals.


How exactly does fewer options make the world a better place?

If you want a dually, buy a dually.

If you want a SRW 1 ton, buy one.

If you want a 3/4 ton, buy one.

This isn't 30yrs ago when you would have to go to each individual dealer and ask for the specs on various options when it came time to purchase. It's easy to get them on the internet.


Yep, and when people go looking at the internet for specs, they look at towing and payload for a stripper TV, and then buy a loaded TV, and if it is a 250/2500 they end up with less payload than a 150/1500!!


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Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 01/15/22 09:25am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Too bad Gliders have been outlawed…

ktmrfs

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Posted: 01/15/22 10:01am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

mkirsch wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

How exactly does fewer options make the world a better place?

If you want a dually, buy a dually.

If you want a SRW 1 ton, buy one.

If you want a 3/4 ton, buy one.

This isn't 30yrs ago when you would have to go to each individual dealer and ask for the specs on various options when it came time to purchase. It's easy to get them on the internet.


Fewer options makes the world a better place by simplifying the buying decision. So many times they recommend here "Don't get a 3/4 ton, get a 1 ton SRW, it's the same thing and for a few hundred dollars more you get more payload blah blah blah..."

Except in my experience 1 ton SRWs are far and few between. In normal years dealers tend to have one or two DRWs, several 3/4 tons, and a whole gaggle of 1/2 tons. Nary a 1 ton SRW to be found, leaving most people trying to follow that advice feeling confused and betrayed.

It also eliminates about 50% of the arguments from this website. "Only difference between 3/4 and 1 ton SRW is a leaf in the springs" "No it's noooooot!" "Is toooooooo!"

Wouldn't the world be a better place with less conflict?


at least on the diesels, GM 3/4 and 1 ton srw have basically the same GVWR. Around 2019-2020 the move the 3/4 ton up a class and moved the GVWR up to around 11,500 very close to the 1 ton SRW.


2011 Keystone Outback 295RE
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2004.5 Silverado 4x4 CC/SB Duramax/Allison passed on to our Son!


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